From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Jun 26 2004 - 19:29:39 BST
Ant McWatt comments on racism in the forum:
The nature of freedom is that it allows the Dynamic as well as the
degenerate so if any restriction is made on free speech it could impede the
intellectual development of the debates.
dmb says:
Right. Free speech MEANS protecting speech that turns one's stomach. It
means protecting speech regardless of content. Otherwise the concept has no
meaning. The only way to fight hateful and ignorant "ideas" is with
reasonable and well informed ideas. Like I keep telling my four year old
son, the best way to fight the bad guys is with words.
McWatt continued:
However, is racism intellectually based? ...The answer is no; it is simply
discrimination purported on a social basis to distract the interests of the
working class (i.e. 95-99% of the world's population) from their genuine
social and economic interests.
dmb says:
Right. Racism is a crude, social level phenomenon. In spite of the uglines
of it, there is much to be learned from it. It serves as a good example of
what is NOT intellectual. It serves as a good example of the dangers that
lurk in our political culture. It can be fascinating to explore the social
and psychological reasons for it. And finally, as we saw in the quotes from
Wilber and Pirsig, we can see it as an example of lower level value systems
in reaction to Modernity, with its principles of free speech and the other
rights. Contrasting racism with intellect serves as a real life example of
the evolutionary struggle between the third and fourh levels.
McWatt added:
Moreover, if posts by Vogel are causing Dynamic contributors such as Rick
Valance to unsubscribe then it will cause the discussions to further
degenerate and reduce the general Dynamic value of MOQ Discuss. For
instance, I think you'd have to read about thirty posts of Vogel's before
you'd reach the equivalent intellectual content of the average Rick Valence
post.
dmb says:
I think Rick is being way too thin skinned and shouldn't allow himself to be
driven off. Racism is a reality. Deal with it. I mean, who was it that said
that the only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing?
I'd point out that the excellent rebuttal marshalled by Heyman would never
have appeared if not for the ugliness that provoked it. I think the various
threads have only worked to expose Vogel and Holden as racists who remain
racists even in the presence of overwhelming scientific evidence to the
contrary. They cling to psuedoscientific hacks in order to sustain these
anti-intellectual beliefs and I think all reasonable readers can see that.
Who knows? Maybe there is a fence-sitting lurker who's presently
re-examining their own, more subtle prejudices.
McWatt concluded:
Therefore, while I wouldn't ban Vogel outright if I was the moderator, I'd
delete any posts he put forward containing his racist propaganda. If such
selective censorship was not straight forward (for instance, would Horse
have to read every post by Vogel before allowing it general access?) then
I'd reluctantly ban Vogel outright on the grounds that it is the lesser evil
between removing him and preventing further Dynamic contributors such as
Rick from unsubscribing. This is no doubt why Vogel has been censored
elsewhere.
dmb says:
Again, I think Rick is preventing Rick. Encountering the Vogels of the world
is just the price we pay for having free speech. However, now that his views
and "intellectual" mentors have both been thoroughly discredited I'm
personally ready to move on to more interesting matters and more challenging
discussions. With that aim in mind, I have simply deleted all of his posts
without reading them.
This is easily done to any poster that repeatedly bores, disgusts or
infuriates you. If you've made it this far, dear reader, it means you have
not deleted this post. I am truly grateful to anyone that takes the time,
which is why I so often end by saying...
Thanks.
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