From: gav (gav_gc@yahoo.com.au)
Date: Sun Jun 27 2004 - 23:33:52 BST
hi arlo,
--- "Arlo J. Bensinger" <ajb102@psu.edu> wrote: > Hi
all,
<snip>
> (1) It seems to me in ZMM, Pirsig at the very least
> sympathizes with the way
> post-Fordist work has removed the object of labor
> from the activity of labor.
> The "dull, gray deathforce" Pirsig describes as the
> result of the seperation of
> technology and Quality, becomes relatable to Marx in
> instance where Pirsig
> talks of the Quality of work of laborers (the
> mechanic and the welder who fixes
> his chainguard) and how these compare to current
> situations where no Quality
> resides in the labor (the initial mechanic Pirsig
> took his bike to). The
> alienation Marx wrote of, and alienation of Quality
> Pirsig wrote of, seem to be
> be analogous ways of describing the same phenomenon.
> In both cases, the
> solution is to re-acquaint the laborer to the
> activity of his or her labor.
> Thoughts?
alienation is fundamental to our western troubles, in
my opinion. unfortunately we are exporting this
alienation to the east aswell. i think the example of
the worker being alienated from the fruits of their
labour is one very good example of this alienation
that nearly all of us have experienced or continue to
experience on a daily basis. however as pirsig makes
clear in ZAMM, the alienation implicit in (most) jobs
is actually a symptom of a deeper metaphysical
alienation : SOM.
> (2) Nothing I've read in Marx suggests a belief that
> in a capital-based economy
> power and wealth could be equally distributed. What
> he promoted (rightfully so
> or not) was a hierarchical shift of power into the
> hands of the laborers and
> out of the hands of the capitalists (again, as I've
> read it). Platt, I believe
> that you made the statement that a laissez-faire
> economy is superior in
> Pirsig's view. While my reading of Pirsig supports
> this, I also question
> whether Pirsig would agree that consumerism (as
> currently practiced in most of
> the Western world) and the gross materialism it
> promotes is of higher quality
> than a socially-focused approached on using
> resources to enrich (indeed, to
> meet) the basic needs of one's fellow man. Here I am
> not talking about top-down
> governmental programs, but a bottom-up reaction to
> "doing good" in one's own
> mini-world (Pirsig, I think said something along
> these lines). To rephrase, it
> is (I would agree) poor Quality to use force to
> control economies, is it not
> high Quality to criticize the gross excess and focus
> on materialism in our
> post-Fordist culture? What I am asking, is whether
> or not the MOQ offers any
> valid criticism of the current economic marketplace,
> not its theoretical (and
> perhaps idealized) aspects, but its practical and
> instantiated existance?
yes. it is immoral for a social pattern of value
(current economic marketplace) to have priority over
an intellectual pattern of value (sustainable and
relatively equitable distribution of resources)
> As you can tell, I have many leanings towards
> certain of Marx's ideas. But I
> also disagree with him on many others. Your thoughts
> on these two ideas are
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Arlo
no worries
gav
>
> PS: As a more personal introduction for you all, I
> work for a foreign language
> resource center doing technology development. And I
> ride Harleys, as Paul Vogel
> will no doubt find when he does a web search on me.
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 -
> http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward -
>
http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the
> instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
>
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Jun 28 2004 - 00:41:52 BST