From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Mon Jul 12 2004 - 17:09:19 BST
All,
> Platt adds some thoughts to Arlo's thoughts:
>
> > Arlo adds some thoughts:
> > Distortion by false relation: "Free market" is not a blanket synonymn with
> > "modern capitalism", except in a purely dichotomous, dualistic world
> > ("modern capitalism" versus "evil"), or in a case where vested interests
> > want to control the dialogue by pretending the two are the only choices.
>
> Guess you disagree with DMB who thinks Pirsig means capitalists when he
> (Pirsig) refers to free enterprise. Is Pirsig also guilty of "false
> relation?"
>
If it is DMB who makes this connection, why would I find Pirsig guilty? Did DMB
say he is against "free enterprise" or "unrestricted free enterprise"?
Are you in favor of unrestricted free-enterprise, or do you feel there should be
some social regulations, which many impede any one individual's personal
freedom, but promotes a level-playing field for all?
> > Distortion by dichotomy: The only two choices are not eastern-bloc
> > socialism and modern American capitalism. Just because the eastern-blocs
> > were wrong, does not ipso facto make modern capitalism right.
>
> You contradict Pirsig who used the "dichotomy" of free enterprise and
> socialism. And where did "modern American capitalism" and "eastern-blocs
> socialism" come from? Not from me. Not from Pirsig.
>
Where is this dichotomy? Pirsig compared a more moral system to a less moral
system. I was unaware that Pirsig's comparison was intended to divide the world
into pure categories. Canada has "free enterprise", does it not? So does
Germany (I've lived there). They are not perfect systems, but maintain
free-enterprise in different ways.
Modern American Capitalism versus Eastern-bloc Socialism: It most certainly
comes from you, Platt. But let me rephrase, yet again, what I mean. "Free
enterprise", which I am not critical of, is the ideal of "honest traders going
about their business in a fair market (level playing field)". "Modern American
capitalism" is "dishonest traders going about their business in an unfair
market (non-level playing field)", which I've given Tijuana and UC as two
examples.
You have implied, repeatedly, my challenge of one (modern american capitalism)
absolutely meant a challenge of the other (free-enterprise). Furthermore, my
critical concerns were repeatedly equated with socialism, using Pirsig's phrase
which was a criticism of easter-bloc socialism. Thus, quite clearly, you've
made my critical challenges to "modern capitalism" an issue of "free
enterprise", and rebuked it by a statement valueing "free enterprise" over
eastern-bloc socialism.
> > > Distortion by omission. Pirsig says, "What makes the free-enterprise
> > > system superior is that the socialists, reasoning intelligently and
> > > objectively, have inadvertently closed the door to Dynamic Quality in the
> > > buying and selling of things."
>
> > Dichotomous distortion similiar to above: Free-enterprise's superiority
> > over eastern-bloc socialism does not mean modern capitalism is unassailable
> > and above critical rethinking. It is a false relation used to control the
> > dialogue: "Free-enterprise" means exactly AND only "modern capitalism".
>
> What does free enterprise mean to you if not capitalism?
>
See above.
> Are you afraid of socialism? Many who contribute to this site are not,
> especially our European friends. In fact, many like DMB defend socialism
> on the grounds, as Pirsig says, it is guided by intellect. If I'm
> promoting fear I fail to detect it here. I do promote freedom. If that
> scares you, I'm sorry.
>
Again. Pure dichotomy. If I am not scared of socialism, I must be scared of
freedom.
You are promoting fear by advancing, continually, this duality. Socialism or
Freedom. You do it here. I think the people of Germany and Canada are free.
Indeed, Platt, I've experienced more "personal freedom" in both the Netherlands
and Denmark than I have in America. Ooops, unless you synonomize "personal
freedom" and "my ability to maximize wealth at any cost".
Because I am critical of your unrestricted personal freedoms to maximize profit
at any cost, I am critical of freedom in general. I support the laws that
restrict my ability to kill, drive drunk or slander others. Does this make me
any enemy of freedom too?
Tell me, Platt, do you favor marijuana legalization? The legalization of
prostitution? Or are only business matters matters that should be free of
"stifling social regulations"?
> > As for evidence to your other "no evidence assertations", I state again
> > that since the very first post I made (regarding Marx and Pirsig and
> > alienation) I stated quite cleary that I favor "free markets"
>
> More accurate I think to say, "I favor free markets, BUT . . ." Right?
>
Wrong. And this just shows again that you've not really bothered to read my
posts. I favor "free markets", I disfavor practices that unlevel the playing
field.
Your "BUT...", I'm sure, is no doubt directed at my comments that "doing good"
should be the dialogue above "earning money". So, yes, just like I favor
regulations on my "right" to maximize profit by bypassing local waste-disposal
taxes by dumping poisonous waste into groundwater that is accessed by a
community, I favor the same regulations on businesses.
There is a line where your "personal freedom" to hurt, exploit or enslave others
to "maximize profit" becomes unacceptable. We can certainly talk about this
line, as we should be doing, but to deny it is ridiculous. In short, "to do
what is reasonable, even when it isn't any good" (Pirsig, full quote given in
earlier post).
> > and a
> > "bottom-up rethinking of capitalism" through changing the dialogue to
> > remove the value-free "money over everything" attitude of modern
> > capitalism.
>
> Your assertion that capitalism is value-free is contradicted by Pirsig who
> says capitalism (free enterprise) allows for Dynamic Quality.
>
Read that again, Platt, I've not said capitalism is value-free. I've said the
dialogue of modern capitalism that advances "money over everything" is
value-free. It refuses to ask "what is good?" and says instead "anything done
pursuing wealth is unassailable". Of course, you could advance the notion that
money is the sole measure of "good", in which case explain how slavery was
wrong?
Pirsig was clear that Quality was synonomous with Dharma, Tao, Arete,
Excellence, Virtue. I don't think he would disfavor speaking of "doing good" in
the current dialogue.
> > Despite several restatements of this, including several
> > relations to Quality as presented in ZMM, each reply presented a view that
> > my "beliefs" favored "coersion of honest traders",
>
> You have yet to show how you would change capitalism, which you've made
> obvious you'd like to do, without legal action.
>
You have got to be kidding me? In at least four posts (that I've been able to
find rereading what I've wrote) I mentioned several suggestions, none of which
included "legal action".
How can you honestly keep writing this stuff? I am beginning to know how
Sisyphus must've felt!
> > "earning money isn't
> > good",
>
> Again, more accurate I think to say, "Earning money is good, BUT . . ."
> Right?
>
BUT.. not at the expense of harming others?
BUT.. it is not the greatest good we should consider?
BUT.. it does not justify all actions?
And you have a problem with changing the dialogue to include that?
> As for your dislike of dichotomies, need I remind you that logical
> exposition and argument are based on the dichotomy of A and not A? In many
> respects, it's indeed a dualistic world. Like life and death.
>
Asking "A and not A" does not logically preclude the existance of B, which must
then be dealth with. You are conflating the world into "A and not A", answering
the question, and then saying there are no more questions to ask.
Arlo
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