From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Sat Jul 17 2004 - 15:43:55 BST
Hi Mark
The change of phrase was merely to start a different thread. It was meant to
have no meaning other than just that. How could that be confusing? It was
meant to REDUCE confusion in case anyone cared to respond.
Mark 17-7-04: Hi Dan, Tigi, the cat who i live with, is sprawled all over my
keyboard. I will try to keep this concise!
I like to deal with the MOQ that's all. The MOQ is where my arguments begin
and end. A metaphysics of 'x' whatever 'x' may be other than Quality does not
help IMO. It's just my personal view. Keeping the MOQ central helps to
encourage others to use it's vocabulary.
Dan:
I know you've been asked this before and I already know the answer but
still, I can't help asking it again: if you don't mind, please point out to
me where the term "coherence" occurs in Robert Pirsig's writings. Perhaps
then the rest of your post will make a little more sense.
Mark 17-7-04: Pirsig has used the term coherence in it's dictionary defined
sense a number of times. Observation and application of the MOQ DQ/sq division
raises the dictionary definition of coherence to a new philosophical position
IMO. This term has been used by Whitehead and Zohar also, but not specifically
in terms of value.
>
>Coherence specifically concerns and takes into account the MOQ's four
>levels
>of evolution, and may therefore avoid the terms, 'personal' 'my' and
>'others'
>if carefully applied. The individual is simply a coherent state dominated
>at
>various stages by one or more levels.
This seems rather silly to me, no more than conjecture.
Mark 17-7-04: Buddhists would disagree with your assessment Dan. And the MOQ
conception of self is entirely in accordance with my statement. I did not
refer to DQ in the above because coherence, as postulated, is a patterned state
which is, by definition, very much open to DQ.
>Coherence is closer to the code of art in that it allows maximum freedom
>within patterns and minimum patterned relationships.
Um, what? and where?
Mark 17-7-04: I shall try to explain without referring you to The edge of
chaos.
sq and DQ are mutual. Coherence is that point where sq patterns are
completely harmonious.
>
>It may be argued that each person, as Arlo suggests, will value a coherent
>state dominated by particular level(s) depending on the fluctuations of
>season,
>desire, social expectation and intellectual value. Dan wishes to morally
>bias
>the Intellectually dominated - fair but impractical - in the real world
>many
>people value biological and social patterns over intellectual patterns.
>
>It has often been noted that the older one becomes the more Conservative
>one
>becomes. The MOQ would describe this as an accumulation of static patterns
>which close off Dynamic influence. Platt Holden is an ugly example of this
>in
>action. Utterly repulsive.
>
>Coherence, on the other hand, may increase AND remain open to Dynamic
>influence because static patterns are held in 'purposeless tension' or
>sq-sq tension.
>I feel Pirsig himself is a beautiful example of this; although well into
>his
>70's he remains fresh and invigorating.
>
>For a few, intense coherence totally removes concern about freedom. After
>all, as Dan quotes Pirsig, "If you’re not suffering from anything
>there’s no
>need to be free."
I'm sorry Mark but I just can't make a lot of sense out of this entire post,
excepting the last sentence. You're not talking the MOQ here. You're talking
about some kind of a personal "improvement" in the MOQ, I suppose, but it
seems much too complicated to me and I'm fearful of getting lost. If it
makes sense to you, fine, but I think I'll just stick to the map.
Thank you for your comments,
Dan
PS I did like your "Coherence and Rhetoric" post.
Mark 17-7-04: Unless i am mistaken, Robert Pirsig is aware of coherence as i
describe it and has made no objection.
All the best,
Mark
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