Re: MF Discussion Topic for July 2004

Date: Mon Jul 05 2004 - 02:08:55 BST

  • Next message: Valence: "MF America, Dynamic Improvement and Soup"

    Mark 5-7-04: Dear Focus group, July 2004 Topic:

    From LILA Chapter 24:
    "The end of the twentieth century in America seems to be an intellectual,
    social and economic rust-belt, a whole society that has given up on Dynamic
    improvement and is slowly trying to slip back to Victorianism, the last
    static ratchet-latch."


    Mark 5-7-04:
    Here are the assertions:
    A. Important social change: spread of the internet.
    B. Important economic event: stock-market bubble.
    C. Important scientific/intellectual advances: computer technology,
    chaos theory, quantum physics.
    Here are the questions:
    1. Is it still fair to say that its end was an "intellectual, social and
    economic rustbelt"?
    2. What sort of intellectual, social and economic 'advances' could have
    prevented the rusting?
    dmb 4-7-04:
    (Its worth noting that the quote's main analogy, the "rustbelt", alludes to
    the economic decay of America's large industrial cities.)
    Mark 5-7-04: I am not sure dmb is correct here. Pirsig says, "a whole
    society" so i assume he means the whole of US society and not merely it's
    centres; industrial centres are not known for their intellectual Quality,
    Universities should be.
    dmb 4-7-04:
    The old biological morality describes gangs, murderers, pimps and the like,
    not the neo conservative architects of American foreign policy. I'm no fan
    the current administration, but describing their behavior as "pre-historic
    brigandage" is too much even for me.
    Mark 5-7-04: Noam Chomsky's, 'Deterring democracy' (DD) indicates
    US administrations knowingly support and actively encourage forces which
    undermine democracy in their client states with biological force the likes
    which the phrase, "prehistoric brigandage" merely conveys lightly.
    dmb provides additional Lila:
    "The MOQ suggests that the social chaos of the 20th century can be relieved
    by going back to this point of departure and re-evaluating the path taken
    from it. It says it is immoral for intellect to be dominated by society for
    the same reasons it is immoral for children to be dominated by their
    parents. But that doesn't mean that children should assassinate their
    parents, and it doesn't mean intellectuals should assassinate society.
    Intellect can support static patterns of society without fear of domination
    by carefully distinguishing those moral issues that are social-biological
    those that are intellectual-social and making sure there is no encroachment
    either way."
    dmb 4-7-04:
    The dynamic revolutions failed because of a fatal flaw in the intellect and
    the quote above tells us how to address that problem.
    Mark 5-7-04: The topic quote says, 'Dynamic improvement.'
    dmb 4-7-04:
    In practical terms, I think that the fundamentalists and other reactionaries
    will loose most of their anger and energy when their values are finally
    recognized and honored for what the are by intellectuals.
    Mark 5-7-04: I shall assume, 'Fundamentalists and reactionaries' describe
    dominant US social patterns of value.
    These patterns are foremost representatives of slippage back to social
    domination of intellectual patterns. They are powerful and winning, as Noam
    Chomsky's analysis of US intellectual culture indicates in DD. Symptoms of
    severity of social dominance of intellectual patterns given by Chomsky are
    changes in accepted meanings of terms such as 'democracy' and 'socialist.'
    provides us with an additional example of his own, without the slightest
    hint of
    dmb 4-7-04:
    I mean, traditonal values feel that they are under attack because they are.
    Mark 5-7-04: I do not understand what dmb means by 'traditional values.'
    Traditional US values have been, for the last 100 years, the social patterns
    dictate: 'obliterate anyone and anything which threatens the right of
    aristocrats to fulfil their manifest destiny.'
    dmb 4-7-04:
    This doesn't mean they derserve to be put back in charge of guiding society,
    Mark 5-7-04: Those patterns guiding society have never left the saddle. dmb
    appears to feel otherwise.
    dmb 4-7-04:
    but an intellectual system that denies social values altogether only ends up
    committing sabotage upon itself.
    Mark 5-7-04: Those guiding society have never been intellectuals - they are
    socially dominated, and have arguably used fear and the suppression of
    information (biological values) to control the masses.
    dmb 4-7-04:
    This is what happened already and repeated attempts, without change in this
    regard, are doomed to repeated failure.
    Mark 5-7-04: How many US presidents have had PhD's in the Humanities or hard
    sciences? How many US presidents have never authorised military action at
    point in their term of office? dmb fails to recognise how and where power
    lies in the US. Intellectual challenges to social domination emerge from
    Intellectual institutions and publications; as such they have no intrinsic
    power or
    influence without social approval.
    We MUST have and intellectual system with some heart and soul, one that
    recognizes the validity of morality and spirituality as such.
    Mark 5-7-04:
    When dmb uses the term, 'Spirituality' he does so as prescribed in the books
    of Ken Wilber - that is to say, transpersonal psychology. Therefore, dmb is
    "We MUST have an intellectual system that recognises transpersonal
    dmb has turned this topic into yet another advertising campaign for Ken
    Wilber, the "cartographer of all systems, all levels." It may be further
    that a society which intellectually systematises within it transpersonal
    psychology is by example an intellectual rust-belt.
    Now to move on to rick's questions.
    Here are the assertions:
    A. Important social change: spread of the internet.
    Mark 5-7-04: The internet has valuable implications for the reinforcement of
    true democracy as an intellectual pattern of value. These patterns have
    emerged strongly since Lila. This provides hope for the future, but does not
    the topic quote.
    B. Important economic events: stock-market bubble.
    Mark 5-7-04: The US economy is in the service of military growth at the
    expense of democratic ideals (social dominance of intellectual patterns).
    internet may help change this as it provides a Dynamic free flow of
    outside static socially patterned governmental control.
    C. Important scientific/intellectual advances in computer technology,
    genetics, chaos theory, quantum physics.
    Mark 5-7-04: These patterns of intellectual value are beginning to recognise
    the demise of SOM - especially chaos and quantum theories, and the quantum
    applications in computers. (All computers are in fact quantum devices.) The
    suggests these realisations may be applied to social patterns also. The
    Internet is one emerging social coherence. (chaos and quantum theories
    emphasise and
    value coherent states - see, 'The edge of chaos' for an enquiry into
    and the MOQ). Genetics may lead to the control of some very unpleasant
    diseases and will hopefully provide control to all.
    Here are the questions:
    1. Is it still fair to say that its end was an "intellectual, social and
    economic rustbelt"?
    Mark 5-7-04: Yes. The future is in the balance, but this is one of the
    reasons why we turn up to this site week in and week out. There is every
    reason to
    be optimistic about a coherent future for us all.
    2. What sort of intellectual, social and economic 'advances' could have
    prevented the rusting?
    Mark 5-7-04: An increase in Quality via the application of true democratic
    ideals based on openness and equality for all.
    All the best,
    MOQ.ORG  -
    Mail Archive -
    MF Queries -
    To unsubscribe from moq_focus follow the instructions at:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Jul 05 2004 - 19:51:11 BST