From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Tue May 17 2005 - 18:09:01 BST
On 17 May 2005 at 12:33, Sam Norton wrote:
Is DQ just on the top, ie you have to ascend up the levels to get to
the DQ (and therefore, presumably, become like the LILA character
Phaedrus)?
Or is DQ the product of the interaction of the various levels (along
the lines of Mark Maxwell's 'sweet spot' imagery) - and therefore the
pursuit of DQ involves the enhancement of all the levels in different
and mutually reinforcing ways? (and therefore we aren't obliged to
become like the LILA character Phaedrus)
To put that in graphical terms, is it option a:
DQ
L4 ^
L3 ^
L2 ^
L1 ^
Or option b:
L4 ->
L3 -> DQ
L2 ->
L1 ->
msh suggests:
It is neither. It's more like this:
UNKNOWN NEXT LEVEL
^
L4 -> DQ
^
L3 -> DQ
^
L2 -> DQ
^
L1 -> DQ
sam:
MSH's point about Socrates.
MSH asked for textual support for some allegations about Socrates,
Sam provided them, then
msh says:
Here he is talking about what Socrates (Plato) thought, in the same
way he talks about Descartes. He's not claiming that the Metaphysics
of Quality re-enthrones Socrates, any more than it idolizes
Descartes. The ideas of Socrates and Descartes characterize past
philosophical upheavals, just as do the ideas of the MOQ.
Sam now says:
But I don't think it's tenable to say that the MoQ doesn't 'enthrone'
Socrates as a martyr, and therefore hold him up as someone to be
emulated, in contrast to the presentation of him in ZMM, where he
was clearly NOT to be emulated.
msh now says:
Well, you've left out my explication of this seeming idolization,
that is,
"The battle for science (or Socratic philosophy) to free itself from
the restrictions of social-dominated thought was a moral battle
because social domination was threatening intellectual survival.
What the MOQ says is , OK, the threat is past, so now let's catch
our breath and apply unfettered intellect to the split between
society and science. When we do, we see that not everything about
social restrictions is negative, and the positive elements should be
incorporated into our newly-freed intellectual understanding of the
world."
So intellectual value (truth) is recognized in some social level
patterns. But if you're not convinced by this, here's something else
to consider: Socrates (Plato) insists that truth stands alone, apart
from social considerations; and yet, in LILA, Dusenberry's method of
determining anthropological truth, by emersing himself in the culture
he's studying rather than maintaining a SOM-Science objectivity, is
found by Phaedrus to be highly valuable. So, Dusenberry's MOQ-
Science method, which contradicts Socrates, is embraced by the
Metaphysics of Quality! QEFnD.
Best to all,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
-- InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983 Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com "Very formidable. First you say things our way and then we'll listen to you. Phaedrus had heard it before. "What it always means is you have hit an invisible wall of prejudice. Nobody on the inside of that wall is ever going to listen to you; not because what you say isn't true, but solely because you have been identified as outside the wall." The Cultural Immune System: LILA-4 MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_focus/ MF Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net To unsubscribe from moq_focus follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/mf/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue May 17 2005 - 18:45:14 BST