Magnus Berg (qmgb@bull.se)
Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:44:01 +0100
Hi again!
> 1. If you are the only one left in the world, your intellectual patterns
> would still exist. You'll need them to survive, like Robinson Crusoe. They
> will be supported by your bio-patterns, but will be independent of those
> patterns. Intell-patterns do not operate with the laws of bio-patterns.
I agree that intell-patterns do not operate with the laws of bio-patterns or
any other type of pattern for that matter. But they cannot be supported
directly by bio-patterns.
> Your bio-pattern immune system has no idea how to keep you from freezing in
> cold weather; your stomach has no idea how to cook squirrel meat much less
> how to catch the squirrel in the first place. As for your intellect, it
> will have no society in your scenario to superimpose itself on; society has
> disappeared. However, your intellect will remain operative in your memory,
> having been previously trained and supported by the now extinct society,
> but operating independent of society.
I'm much more orthodox on this issue. When I say dependent, I mean dependent
as in: If the social patterns dissapears, the intellectual patterns will go
with it. I think you're adding something to the MoQ which is not there.
> 2. We agree that "ability to reproduce itself" can apply to societies and
> ideas and is therefore not an exclusive description of the bio-level. Bio
> reproduction was invented by DQ, but became a static latch--a static
> pattern of change within the bio-level just as the motion of the planets is
> a static pattern of change within the inorg-level. Dynamic in the Pirsig
> lexicon doesn't simply mean change. The change is always towards freedom
> from static patterns. Reproduction simply means copying already established
> patterns.
Ok then, what else is there that defines the organic level. If the
reproduction is used both to evolve and to spread identical patterns,
then what's so special about those identical patterns that's spreading?
> The senses of touch, sight, taste, hearing, smell are reproduced
> minute by minute by static bio-patterns.
Wait a minute, this is not the same reproduction as above. This isn't
reproduction at all. It is Quality Events, and every QE is unique. I think
you of all people should know that.
> 3. A society of robots is no more a society in Pirsigian terms than a
> school of fish. So the "problem" is mute. Robots are imitations of
> intell-patterns supported by inorg-patterns. Since they skip bio and social
> patterns, they will forever remain dumb compared to humans.
Here you make another assertion that's not found in the MoQ. No pattern
can skip any level below it.
BTW, I found the quote in Lila I talked about, (The end of Ch. 11)
"... the shift in cell reproduction from mitosis to meiosis to permit
sexual choice and allow huge DNA diversification is a Dynamic advance.
So is the collective organizations of cells into metazoan societies
called plants and animals."
I guess it's open for different interpretations, but I interpret it
as Pirsig says that plants and animals are social SPoVs.
> Well, as Pirsig said, "If you don't generalize, you don't philosophize."
> Not a complete answer by any stretch, but you get my drift. Gists,
> generalizations and abstractions allow intellect to roam about more freely
> to make new, sometimes breakthrough connections.
I'm all with you, and it seems to me that I'm generalizing more than anyone
on the TLS. I do this by stripping off all non-significant variables to
get to the core of problems. This usually leads to very mechanical and
static setups, but that's the point, to get rid of DQ so there's only
static patterns left. There's a big difference between general and ambigous.
Magnus
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