clark (clark@netsites.net)
Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:19:38 +0100
----------
> From: andrew_russell/fs/ksg@ksg.harvard.edu
> To: Multiple recipients of <lilasqd@mail.hkg.com>
> Subject: LS Pirsig and Marx
> Date: Friday, March 13, 1998 7:21 PM
>
> andrew russell/fs/ksg
> 03/13/98 08:21 PM
>
> To: lilasqd@hkg.com
>
> cc:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I only discovered this group very recently, and have been monitoring the
> discussions only loosely, as the constraints of time and energy prevent
me
> from doing all the things I want to do.
> I was absolutely floored with the level of discussion here. I didnt know
> something like this existed. I was looking at several graduate schools
in
> the US and in England, and none had the type of program I need to make
> progress on this massive problem (i.e. suffering in mind and body of one
> and all). The need for discussion of these topics is invaluable, and I
> thank all of you for creating this thing.
>
> Part of the beauty of the Internet is its ability to facilitate multiple
> discussions. These comments are a digression from the latest topics, i.e.
> Pirsig's work as a system & the merits of MoQ. This is in an attempt to
> bring some other valuable portions of the book to light. Making this
> discussion group more multidisciplinary, if you will.
>
>
>
> I am thinking about the relationship that exists between the thought of
> Pirsig and that of the culturally blacklisted "evil" social and political
> philosopher, Karl Marx. Unfortunately the cancerous mindset (worldview)
> that McCarthyism hosted for so long, the declaration of all-out war on
> everything associated with the Soviets (evil empire, etc.), has crippled
> education and Marxist philosophy is widely understood as the tool of evil
> dictators. To understand the distortions of Marx and Marxism and the
> nature of his deeper philosophies, see Marx's "Economic and Philosophic
> Manuscripts of 1844", incl. "Estranged Labour", and other early Marx as
> defined by any responsible biographer. Eric Fromm"s "Marxist Concept of
> Man" is a good book too. "A provocative new view of Marx stressing his
> humanist philosophy and challenging both Soviet distortion and Western
> ignorance of his basic thinking." <-- words on the cover.
> Marx's focus, as we know, as upon the worker. His work was a
> "conscientious critique of political economy," driven by honesty,
> curiosity, dissatisfaction with convention, and what we can understand
> simply as a lack of Quality in the conditions and ethics of industrial
> capitalism. His concern was over the phenomena, fueled by industrial
> capitalism, of workers being overworked, underpaid, and therefore
alienated
> and estranged from the world and all of its meaning. Torn apart from
> oneself and everything. Grey drab meaningless go to work, go to bed,
dont
> get enough sleep, too cold, cant feed the family, mindfuck life. workin
> for the man.
> This is the original brilliance of Marx. He knew exactly what was going
on
> in 1845, when we still today wonder about the ethical implications of
> massive exportation of goods and labor (i.e. evil corporations like
Nike),
> and clearly dont have a handle on what is truly ethical, or good. Or in
> other words, what has Quality.
>
> This same alienation haunts Pirsig. It haunts many of us. It is Sylvia
> and John's problem, this detachment, this distortion of identity. P
> understands this problem as deeply as the great thinkers, "The real
> ugliness lies in the relationship between the people who produce the
> technology and the things they produce, which results in a similar
> relationship between the people who use the technology and the things
they
> use" (Chp. 25).
>
> What I'm trying to identify here (and forgive the departure from Kant and
> Morality feel free to ignore this, or PLEASE let me know if I'm going
over
> old ground or have seen articles that discuss subject) is the overlapping
> of two massive, coherent interpretations of man and of the basic problems
> of humanity today: the spiritual ramifications of the grossly imperfect
> environment
> (physical, social, economic, intellectual, etc.) that is around us and IS
> us. Dynamic Quality is the source of the desire to make our lives more
> meaningful, more informed, healthier, richer. Quality is an excellent
word
> for this feeling which, as has been discussed at length, cannot be
defined.
>
> I guess I'm writing this here now to see what kind of reaction I get.
> "Anyone wanna talk Marx?"
>
> A curious foray into the unknown.
>
> Andy
>
> P.S. also think that the relationship with Chris and his father is vital
to
> Pirsig's writing. It is particularly significant, final chapter (32):
>
> "It's so different."
> "What?"
> "Everything. I never could see over your shoulders before."
>
> think evolution....
>
>
>
> --
> post message - mailto:lilasqd@hkg.com
> unsubscribe/queries - mailto:diana@asiantravel.com
> homepage - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4670
>
>
Andrew,
Glad to see that you have landed on our site. I think you will get plenty
of takers with the thread you are proposing. Plenty of divergence of
opinion here.
As one who grew up on a subsistence farm in southern Oklahoma in the
thirties (born in 1925) I know the feeling that you are talking about.
A different set of problems now but to my mind about as bad as the
depression era. Spiritual hunger is about as bad as physical hunger. I
will say that the current world has a wider array of choices if one is
willing to cut loose from expectations.
The hypocrisy is more diverse now, not as concentrated and readily
identifiable as it was sixty years ago or so but just as pervasive. It has
always been this way so far as I am able to determine and probably always
will be. We just have to find pur own path. Probably can't escape some
compromises.
We have at least two Phd candidates in the squad whose area of interest
is Pirsig and the Metaphysics of Quality. Also have some well versed Tao
and Zen people whom you will probably enjoy.
We didn't finish out discussion of the beginnings. If you have any
further ideas lay them on me. I am still of the opinion that there is a
logical explanation for our situation. I have not departed from the ideas I
expressed in the forum. Pirsig will accommodate just about anybody. Ken
Clark
-- post message - mailto:lilasqd@hkg.com unsubscribe/queries - mailto:diana@asiantravel.com homepage - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/4670
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