Fintan Dunne (findunne@iol.ie)
Wed, 27 May 1998 03:06:09 +0100
Being a relative newcomer, I had to synopsise the postings to
date for my own purposes. I'm uploading the summary as it may
help consolidate thoughts as we move to a conclusion.
Diana What does Pirsig mean by the subject-object MP?
Hugo All those stances with a subject opposed to some
object- this being tacitly accepted and unexamined.
Donny 3 conflated stances: Mind-Body, Subjectivity-
Objectivity and I-this(knower-known).
Magnus The hard part is seeing the underlying assumption.
Martin Because they think that way through language.
Richard A higher realm of truth and a lower of appearance.
Gunn If 'I' is static Q. Is 'ME' dynamic and = the soul?
Ken Primary awareness is pure S-O. Altruism later.
Diana Norretranders' ME' filter is an object.
Horse SOM is A OR NOT A. The MOQ is A AND NOT A.
Bo 'I' is static Intellect and 'ME' is static Biology.
Ken All life lives in a shell so S-O is inbred in Nature.
Quality has 'ab initio' been integrating entities.
Bo ZMM says SOM grew from truth v. opinion.
Ken SOM is the isolated observer of Nature.
Diana Is SOM self/not self or just any old A/NOT A?
Horse Both. S/NOT S is one example of old way dualism.
Brett All dualisms are basically Self/Not Self (=Science).
Diana The mother of all dualisms. No self in animals though.
Tricia Animals MAY have some sense of themselves.
Brett The objective observer in SOM is imagined pretence.
Bo Non-SOM dualisms include: Good/Evil and Chaos Order.
Maggie DynamicQ is not Chaos? What's the interface to StaticQ?
Bo Chaos was = evil but now is full of energetic possibility.
Richard Chaos has Quality. Old Order/Chaos was an S-O split.
Magnus SOM Monisms are S<-->O. SOM Dualisms are S/O.
SOM seeks Truth > Good. MOQ seeks Good > True.
Bo Intellect modifies Society as Society modifies Life.
Horse Pre-SOM dualisms were Mythos. Post-SOM are Logos.
Maggie 2 Dualisms: Pattern/NotPattern and HIGHER<Social>LOWER.
Bo Instinct is a platypus for unexplained animal behaviour.
The MOQ dividing line is lateral and not vertical.
Magnus Does logocentracism deny the need for metaphysics?
Horse ANY SOM reduces Value/Quality to 'mere' opinion.
Hugo SOM is only the S-O split, not all dualisms.
The MOQ has 'value' primary to objective reality.
Subjectivity and objectivity will merge to contextuality.
Magnus SOM is either/or dualism with each side being exclusive.
Bo Didn't Pirsig say SOM was an MOQ split S-O not DQ-SQ?
Jonathan SOM sees 1 TRUTH- verifiable by DATA experiments.
Only data that MEANS something (has quality) is collected.
Magnus Science seeks an absolute worldview without context.
Hugo Materialism and idealism have a SOM split at their roots.
Diana The SOM is an irreductible S-O of the knower and known.
Assuming individual subj. reality and objective truth.
Theo The MOQ is not dualist because all reduces to Quality.
Fintan The MOQ cut is an integrated dualism not a schiziod one.
Jonathan The Unknowable SOM object seems SUPERNATURAL.
Donny Idealist monism collapses S-O to Knower/Known as Tao.
Fintan MOQ is lateral thinking at 90degrees of freedom to SOM.
Jonathan S and O is still within MOQ as multiple layered sybjects.
Diana Aor/notA is just a dualism. SOM needs subjects+objects.
Donald IF the SOM S-O dualism is false. S=O. ie MOQ=Idealism.
Hugo Reflection on S-O thinking = 2nd Order at the same level
Fintan SOM comes from language. SUBJECT<--Language-->OBJECT.
Theo Do we want Materialism and Idealism in the SOM definition?
Jonathan Meaning = Quality because it contains evaluation.
MOQ has Objects in events and Subjects who match patterns.
Theo Quality must be pre-existant to recognition by an I*observer.
Regards
Fintan Dunne
findunne@iol.ie
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b3 on Thu May 13 1999 - 16:43:15 CEST