glove (glove@indianvalley.com)
Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:16:13 +0100
hi Bodvar and squad
i have been thrilled with the level of discussion too! there are so many
interesting posts that i can only choose a scant few to reply to. but they
are all great reading and represent some very insightful thinking. thank you
everyone!
Bodvar wrote:
My proposal of Quality as a next level is a test balloon I admit that
and I may have forgotten to let go the line when I inflated my SOTAQI
idea and am now soaring along with it...and will have a heavy fall
when someone finally punctures it. Your objection (about the
viability of a Q-level when everything is quality) is a hole, but
I'll try to patch it.
Bodvar, there is nothing wrong with floating up a few test balloons. i do
the same myself and some crash and some fly, but you never know until you
actually present the idea whether it will stand up under scrutiny.
Bodvar wrote:
According to ZMM there reigned a kind of proto-quality "metaphysics"
before the old Greeks started to develop the growing S-O logic into
a fullfledged S-O metaphysics. In LILA this same development is
interpreted as Intellect freeing itself from it's Social origins,
i.e; looking upon the individual as intrinsically different and
more valuable than (its) society and environment.
Bodvar, yes i just recently re read chap. 29 of ZMM and there is much value
there, i agree. and i can statically agree with everything you say. but
there is a deeper underlying meaning if you follow the conflicts Pirsig
explored between the sophists and the cosmologists. this is the consignment
of 'thinking' to the internal discursive dialogue we have going on in our
heads all the time, and the taking away of Dynamic Quality thinking, which
is the way 'real' thinking arises.
i dont know about you, but my really insightful moments come when i am
not-thinking about the problem at hand. you could say, if you really wished
to, that it arises in a Quality layer surrounding the intellect, but that is
not right. it doesnt. real thinking is Dynamic in nature. it arises in the
DQ which surrounds and encapsulates the entire 4 layers of the MOQ. look at
my MOQ wimple model again and you will be able to invision what i am saying
perhaps. and you have to imagine the vastness of DQ in the MOQ! this is the
very power of the intellect!
Bodvar wrote:
After this enormous historically shift (proto-) quality was
forgotten, SOM reigned. So, now if Quality returns it CANNOT appear
in its old role (as a blissful 'laissez faire') After the
Intellectual detour everything is changed, the new Quality simply HAS
to grow out of Intellect - which means that S-O logic will forever be
part of reality, BUT NO LONGER REALITY ITSELF
Bodvar, Quality could well be said to have grown out of the intellect, but
the intellect IS that Quality, of course. awareness of the MOQ grows out of
the intellect, that i can agree on. and we need some static latches to form
agreements with, to use the MOQ. your own SOTAQI is an example of that i
think, as well as Pirsigs assigning subjectivity to the social and intellect
layers, and objectivity to the inorganic and biological layers. this allows
the MOQ to contain SOM and expand on its notions rather than obliterating
them. but eventually they have to be let go of when a real transcendence is
made. SO thinking becomes a part of the MOQ and not the other way around,
even though SO thinking was 'here' first.
i dont think Quality is really 'returning' from 2500 years ago in the way
you suggest. the decisions made by Aristotle and the cosmologists allowed
our civilization to rise and so they contain a great deal of value. now i
think we are seeing a transcendence rather than a regression to the old
sophist thinking, and yet the two are remarkably similar.
i really dont think a person sees the awesome beauty of the MOQ until they
see the completeness it contains. once that completeness is recognized,
there is no longer any reason to attempt to add any layers above or below
the 4 static layers.
best wishes to all,
glove
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