LS static and Dynamic

From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Thu May 06 1999 - 23:54:13 BST


Roger and all Pirsigians:

Yes, I've learned a lot too. I'm extremely grateful to all the posters.

Regarding the debate over static patterns being a real external reality
or an invention of the intellect, Roger provided this quote from
Pirsig...

"In the MOQ, experience is pure Quality which gives rise to the creation
of intellectual patterns which in turn produce a division between
subjects and objects. Among these patterns is the intellectual pattern
that says 'there is an external world of things out there which are
independent of intellectual patterns'. That is one of the highest
quality intellectual patterns there is. And in this highest quality
intellectual pattern, external objects appear historically before
intellectual patterns... But this highest quality intellectual pattern
itself comes before the external world, not after, as is commonly
presumed by the materialist."

I like to think that my feeble mind can handle subtle distinctions and
the paradoxical nature of certain ideas, but this has me completely
stumped. If the last sentence were not included, I'd have no problem
with the quote. The last thought seems to flatly contradict the previous
thoughts. Do external "objects" come historically before the
intellectual patterns or not? Pirsig seems to be making two incompatable
claims. Perhaps something was lost or omitted in translation? Perhaps
it is a typographical error? I just don't see any subtlety or paradox
here, only simple contradiction. Either there has been a mistake or I
need help.

Roger also notes that Pirsig concludes by saying that "things" like
gravity are an external reality "in a very high quality interpetation of
experience". This also contradicts that last sentence and seems to back
up the first thoughts. By "a very high quality interpetation of
experience" doesn't Pirsig mean a map that very closely corresponds to
the acutal territory? I think he's saying yes, there is an external
reality as far as we can tell. He's saying that there is almost
certainly some difference between the external reality itself and our
ideas about it, but that we can be pretty certain its not just in our
minds.

I looked through Anthony McWatt's paper with an eye toward this issue,
and I think I've found there some relevant quotes from Pirsig.

"The mind-matter paradoxes seem to exist because the connecting links
between these two levels of value patterns have been disregarded. Two
terms are missing; biology and society. Mental pictures do not originate
out of inorganic nature. They originate out of society, which originates
out of biology which originates out of inorganic nature. ... As the
atomic physicist, Niels Bohr, said, 'we are suspended in language.' Our
intellectual description of nature is always culturally derived."

Here it seems our ability to have ideas (intellectual patterns of value)
is predicated on the existence of the three prior levels. It seems the
org, bio and social levels are a prerequisite of intellectual value
patterns. The foundation and walls have to be constructed before the
roof can be built. Otherwise you've got slate tiles and a gutter system
floating in thin air, if you know what I mean. (And incidentally, this
is what I mean when I say that our normal perceptions are MEDIATED
through all the levels of static patterns, and are therefore indirect
and imperfect perceptions of reality.) Carmen pointed to this same idea
when she made reference to the fact that our ideas are imbedded in the
mythos, which is essentially the same as the social level. The Logos
requires the Mythos. Ideas require language.

In the same letter from Pirsig to McWatt he says that "subatomic forces
can express limited preferences too." Clearly this implies that there is
"mind" as well as "matter" even on the first level of static patterns.
All static patterns are created by "experience" at all levels. There is
mind and matter at all levels. The classic mind/matter problem is
dissolved in the MOQ. I don't mean to suggest that the external reality
is some kind of dead "substance" which is completely other than our type
of conciousness. Its just a different level of consciousness. Atoms are
aware and have experince, but in their own way. They don't have
intellectual patterns of values, instead inorganic patterns of value
have them.

We are each a microcosm. The universe is within us and we are within the
universe.

David B.

MOQ Online - http://www.moq.org



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