Rog, David B., Struan, Platt, Jonathan, others,
Thanks for the responses guys. I want to start of with apologizing
for not being able to respond as quick and often as I want to. Although
I follow all the discussions and have much thoughts and ideas to share, I
often don't post knowing that I'll have a very hard time finding the
possibility to answer the responses. Just want you to know that it's not
arrogance or indifference if I don't respond.
That being said, over to the discussion about the experiencer and the
experienced. I think a central distinction has to be made. It is
a distinction I have made earlier (a long time ago) and though I'm
sure you have a hard time agreeing with it (it's quite analytical)
I hope you will try to understand how I view the issue.
The paradox is nicely put by Horse when he says: “We are created by
reality as much as we create it.”
Well now, I read this as follows
1. "WE CREATE REALITY"
Quality is "derived from the relationship of mind and matter". Or to put
it differently Quality/reality arises where the subject collides with the
object. Reality is in the relationship between you as an experiencer and the
experienced. In this view DQ is everything an experiencer has not yet
experienced, 'potential' so to speak. Furthermore as Platt once wrote
this "Experience is not solely the province of human beings."
In the human-mind, through the experiencing-proces patterns are formed.
ALL patterns that are formed by the proces of experiencing are
dependent on the structure of the experiencer. Therefore the reality
of the patterns (SQ) is always in the wake of the 'real' Reality (DQ).
Because the 'reality' gets stored in your brain like a collection of values,
which are dependent on the structure that does the experiencing, this
collection is never as Real, never as True, as the experience itself.
Every experiencer builts his own Reality. Platt's: "Mine is the only world".
The path to mysticism, is the path of reducing the (DMB's) mediation of the
data, to finally experiencing life directly (immediate). At the cutting edge
of the creation of reality if you will. There seer, seeing and seen unite.
Like
Rog says: "We are the universe". (Though stricktly speaking there's no "We"
anymore).
Though Reality can be experienced fuller and can be 'understood' better
by mystic experiences, it stays a big question to me if the final
understanding and direct experience of the universe won't always be
LIMITED to the very structure in which it all happens: the brain. But
that's beside the point.
2. "WE ARE CREATED BY REALITY":
Quality/reality precedes and creates mind/matter. The evolutionary path
has gone from anorganic -, via biological - and social -, to intellectual
patterns. This evolutionary path states that preceding the human mind as an
'experiencer', patterns did already exist. In other words without a single
human being on the face of this earth, there would be something 'out there'.
One can call this reality, though note it is different from the reality
above.
In this reality I see a less strict devision between DQ and SQ. In fact
they're
in a continuum.
I want to acknowledge however that this 'outside world' can never be
'proven'.
As 'true' as it may seem, it will always be an assumption that there are
'patterns' outside the human mind. Like Pirsig said (and I can't find the
quote)
it's one of the strongest and most static intellectual patterns that exists.
The difference in interpretation in the word Reality a term like Pattern of
Value
, and (more important) the difference the underlying premises of members
in the discussion, is leading to a lot of shouting to the deaf. I don't say
we have to agree on eachother's premises, but we must acknowledge them to
really understand what someone writes and why it is written. For me, taking
into account the two views of reality above has cleared up a lot of words,
sentences and quotations of others.
Dtchgrtngs,
Walter.
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