Dear Dave,
Gratitude must be expressed for your compassionate & informative
response to this static/dynamic Taoist's take on the MOQ. I find Pirsig
fascinating because like Quality,
Tao cannot be defined until after it makes its presence known, & neither
Quality nor Tao are exhibitionistic. When Pirsig translates The Tao Te
Ching, substituting Quality for Tao,
he comes up with, "The quality that can be defined is not the absolute
quality." In Chinese, that sentence literally translates as, "Tao can Tao
not absolute Tao." IMHO, there is no adequate way of translating Taoism
into English. For example, the Paul Carus translation of 1913 renders
the first sentence of chapter 5 as, "But for heaven & earth's humaneness,
the ten thousand things [everything] are straw dogs [sacrificial
objects]." Most modern translations render it as,"Heaven & Earth aren't
humane. To them the ten thousand things are straw dogs." Can't you feel
the shift from static to dynamic quality
in these passages? So, Pirsig has value to me as a Taoist.
As for Sushi, it's rather bland, has Zen quality, & is served with fiery
mustard for those who don't get off on Zen.
Cheers,
Jeff
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:34:12 -0500 3rdWavedave <dlt44@ipa.net> writes:
> Jeff
>
> Your suggestion that "Pirsig concentrates on quality as a positive
> absolute" may be why it seems
> that the MoQ does not jive with the Taoist perspective.
>
> While the MoQ does have some absolutes:
>
> "Quality was value. They were the same thing" Lila-pp 58 "
>
> "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be
> distinguished from anything else it doesn't
> exist. To this the Metaphysics of Quality adds a second principle:
> if a thing has no value it isn't
> distinguished from anything else. Then putting the two together, A
> thing that has no value does not
> exist." pg 114
>
> "Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior to
> intellectual abstractions." Lila-pp 64
>
> "Quality is the primary empirical reality of the world" Lila-pp 67
>
>
> "Static Quality is the class of stable or accepted values, patterns,
> laws, customs, and theories
> that societies have formalized and that change little over time.
> "Dynamic Quality", on the other
> hand, are those values which are outside of any society, that cannot
> be contained by any system of
> precepts, but have to be continually rediscovered as a culture
> evolves" Lila-pp 58 "
>
> "Quality is morality." Lila-pp 97
>
> These and other "absolutes" like them are part of the map, the
> metaphysical system, and as such are
> analogous to Taoism positing that nothing existing singularly, left
> requires right, up/down etc.
> So while internal to the Taoist system " all is relative & there
> are no absolutes" before one can
> apply the system one must accept the "absolute" rule that reality is
> composed of counterbalancing
> pairs. And though I'm unfamiliar with the precepts of Taoism I'm
> sure it has other such metaphysical "absolutes."
>
> But like Taoism once one accepts the "absolutes" of the MoQ system I
> would say that internal to the
> system " all is relative & there are no absolutes" Everything is
> dynamic changing moment to moment.
> Delicate balances must be maintained, internal to the static levels,
> level to level, pattern to
> pattern, and patterns to whole for high quality events to occur.
>
> In my Tuesday post I addressed the positive aspect of Quality, but
> would go on to add that this is
> just my convention that if under the MoQ one wishes to assign "low
> quality" negative values and
> "high quality" positive values it in no way negates the system.
>
> I also just don't see,
>
> > The blow dealt the MOQ is that from a Taoist perspective, there
> are a multitude of relative qualities
> > that play havoc with the MOQ. Examples: a poor quality dish in a
> high quality restaurant is mixed
> > quality;
>
> Not only do relative qualities not play havoc with the MoQ it could
> be claimed that they are what it
> explains best. First and foremost it would say that the "quality" of
> restaurant experience would be
> based on the dynamic relationship between the all intellectual,
> social, organic, and inorganic
> patterns present at the event from the point of view of the one
> making the judgment. Thus from my
> POV, "what is a high quality restaurant experience," will most
> probably differ from yours, although
> after we eat we could discuss it using the structure of the MoQ and
> possibly come to some agreement
> why we have these views. But if you are a Terry Bradsaw, as in the
> recent TV commercial, and have in
> place a static pattern of social values that says one does not eat
> raw fish, then from your POV what
> I might view as highest quality sushi restaurant in the world still
> serves "bad dishes". I could go
> on relates "biological qualities" to cleanliness or healthiness of
> the food, or "social qualities"
> like my buds hang out there, or "inorganic qualities" such as the
> lighting, decor, or overall
> arrangement of the place, but in the end all these relative and
> interrelated patterns of value are
> mediated , both consciencely and unconsciencely, and the experience
> judged either good, bad, or
> something in-between. I would admit that if the food kills you it's
> acceptable, under the MoQ, to
> view it as a negative. But only from your dynamic, intellectual, and
> social perspective, your
> "leftovers" still would have some organic and inorganic qualities
> the worms would find very GOOD.
>
> 3WD
>
>
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Pearl is a cultured gem!
Signed,
Mother of Pearl
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