Struan,
Hey... first off, I'd like to deal with this:
>
> RICK:
> "You've already agreed to the refutation of your own criticism.... if
"subject/object" is replaced
> "phenomenal/noumenal" . . . . etc"
>
STRUAN:
> I must protest that I have agreed to no such thing. You have twisted what
I, Pirsig and Kant wrote
> by changing the words and the meaning completely. Let me be clear. I have
never agreed and do not
> agree that subject and object can be replaced by noumenal and phenomenal
any more than I would agree
> that ramekin and rector could be replaced by pink and albatross.
RICK:
I believe you have misinterpreted....
The AGREEMENT to which I was refering in this paragraph was your agreement
(from YOUR original post) that Quality is an event... "PIRSIG:
"Quality is not a thing. It is an event" --- "STRUAN: Of course."
The CRITICISM I was refering to was from your second post: ----"STRUAN:
Indeed, I can't make sense of it past the first sentence, namely; "In the
Metaphysics of Quality the world is composed of three things: phenomena,
noumena and Quality." The problem is that phenomena and noumena are, by
definition, all encompassing. If quality is accessible by sense perception
then it is phenomenal, if it is not accessible by means of sense perception
then it is noumenal."
What I was saying was that "IF you agree to the phen./noum. substitution,
THEN you have already agreed that no third category is necessary--- BECUASE
Quality is an EVENT involving the two...."
NOW BACK TO THE ISSUE:
STRUAN:
> Perhaps if you could show me how any of the following make any sense
whatsoever under Kant's
> definitions, or, otherwise, supply me with your definitions of phenomanal
and noumenal so that we
> can bridge the gap between you thinking this makes good sense and me
thinking it is all nonsense.
>
RICK:
That sounds fair. (I really do believe that we're supposed to be impartially
seeking knowledge here and not just.... you attack, I defend.... I attack,
you retaliate... it should be discussion, not debate.....) So...
KANT:
> Phenomena (for Kant) means, 'a thing in so far as it is an object of our
sensible intuition,'
> (Kant - Critique of Pure Reason - London - MacMillan - 1963 - pg268-269)
Noumena means, 'a thing in
> so far as it is not an object of our sensible intuition,' (Ibid).
STRUAN:
Notice that both phenomena and
> noumena refer to objects.
RICK:
There seems to be an equivocation of the term "object" going on --- because
of the way Kant uses "object". Kant's definitions of Phen./Noum. do NOT
both refer to "objects", as you say ... they actually refer to some "THING"
('a THING in so far as it....). They refer to seperate aspects of some
"THING" as "OBJECTS".... (let's call it "thing-A")... so...
Phenomena: [an aspect of thing-A] in so far as it is an "object" of our
sensible intuition...
Noumena: [an aspect of thing-A] in so far as it is not an "object" of our
sensible intuition.
I think Cory picks up this equivocation as well...
CORY:
...looking at the way "object" is used
in the quote above I feel it does not refer to an "object" in the sense of
subject-object metaphysics but rather along the lines of "observation" or
"exerience" by our intuition.
RICK:
Right... the SOM "object" in these defintions is represented by the "THING";
the SOM "subject" is represented by the "observation of our sensible
intuition". I think to dissolve the equivocation we need to replace Kant's
"object" with another term that allows the sentances to convey the same
meaning, but exposes their SOMish nature. So...
Phenomena (or Subjective): Aspects of a "thing" in so far as it IS an
"observation of our sensible inution".
Noumena (or Objective): Aspects of a "thing" in so far as it IS NOT an
"observation of our sensible intuition".
> To take my first example;
>
> RICK:
> "Because something is not located in the [noumenal] does not mean that it
has to be located in [the
> phenomenal]."
>
> Translation;
> "Because something is not located in the [Aspects of a "thing" in so far
as it IS NOT an "observation of our sensible inution] does not mean that it
has to be located in [Aspects of a "thing" in so far as it IS an
"observation of our sensible inution ]."
STRUAN:
If you want to call this a 'one sort of object/another sort of object'
> metaphysics then carry on. You do not, however, have any justification for
seeing it as a
> subject/object metaphysics and so cannot meaningfully substitute one of
the terms for, 'subject.'
RICK:
I think this justifies my substitution.... but before I go any further.....
your thoughts at this point????
>
>
> -------------
> "But it can be derived from the relationship of [the Aspects of a "thing"
in so far as it IS an "observation of our sensible inution ] and [the
Aspects of a "thing" in so far as it IS NOT an "observation of our sensible
inution"] with
> each other"
> -------------
> "Quality occurs at the point at which [the Aspects of a "thing" in so far
as it IS an "observation of our sensible inution] and [the Aspects of a
"thing" in so far as it IS NOT an "observation of our sensible inution" ]
meet."
> -------------
> "And because without [the Aspects of a "thing" in so far as it IS NOT an
"observation of our sensible inution"] there
> can be no [Aspects of a "thing" in so far as it IS an "observation of our
sensible inution"] quality is the event at
> which awareness of both [the Aspects of a "thing" in so far as it IS an
"observation of our sensible inution"] and [the Aspects of a "thing" in so
far as it IS NOT an "observation of our sensible inution"] is made
possible."
ETC. ETC. ETC.
> STRUAN:
> Do you see my objection now? I can't possibly see a rational argument in,
or put up a rational
> argument against this because it appears to me to be gobbledegook.
>
> RICK:
Is this still gobbledegook to you????
your partner in this dialectic,
Rick
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