Roger,
Thanks for your info on the freewill discussion. I will look at it. But, in
the meantime:
ROG:
But as parts of the system, it is essential that the individual needs
changing too. People aren't just products of society, society is also a
product of people.
Dave:
Individuals need to change. How do you change a child's behavior? Do you
tell him to change and assume that he/she can by mere choice? Or do you
train him to change? Do you assume resposibility for changing a child? Now,
after 18 years of training by society, do you believe that this same child
could just change his/her behavior instantly? Why is it suddenly his/her
responsibility?
Rog:
The first step in empowering people is accountability,
Dave:
If I am accountable for my actions, that means that I must be willing to
assume consequences for them. Extreme case: I am crippled, I must assume
accountability for my being crippled and expect no different treatment.
Rog:
a society of unempowered, unaccountable people would be a very disfunctional
society. (Examples of such are fairly common place).
Dave:
How many people in our society believe in self-determination? I'd say its
close to being unanimous. If we all believed that people had no choice in
their actions, how would that change our views on punishment? Why would I
even want to punish someone if I knew they had no choice? I guess just to
make me feel better.
Rog:
"I think that the concept of no free will is a cop out. By saying a person
can't choose his fate, we (society) divorce them of responsibility for their
(and society's)
ills.
If we viewed people not as isolated entities, but as parts of a system, we
would see that both need to be accountable."
Dave:
If we make society accountable in any way, then we are certainly assuming a
middle position, to which I am not opposed. I think I can show that there is
no such thing as total free will (I can define behaviors that you cannot do,
no matter how much you want.)
Obviously the idea that one has free will is part of the environment that
shapes a persons behavior. As such, it is a positive influence on behavior.
If I think that there is absolutely nothing I can do about my situation,
then I get depressed. However, if people tell me that I can do better, that
I am empowered, it helps me. So a middle way might be a good approach.
My problem is really with punishment. I think that society uses choice as an
excuse to punish, and as an excuse not to help. I mean, if those people in
Africa would just get off their asses, maybe they could have more. You know?
Rog:
PS -- Are the rumors true that Skinner's daughter became a disturbed biker
chick?
Dave:
Disturbed biker? You mean like Pirsig? ;) Probably you're thinking about
Watson. But...
Even if those rumors were true, in what way would it negate any of Skinner's
scientific findings? However, in this case it is very similar to the false
Christian position that Darwin renounced evolution on his deathbed. He did
not, but even if he had, it would not change the validity of his ideas.
Think about it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something from the net: maybe true maybe false:
Claim: Psychologist B. F. Skinner raised his own daughter in a "Skinner
box"; as a result, she grew up psychologically damaged and sued her father
when she became an adult.
Status: False.
Origins: B. F. Skinner was a renowned behavioral psychologist who began
his career in the 1930s and is best known for his development of the Skinner
box, a laboratory apparatus used to conduct and record the results of
operant conditioning experiments with animals. (These are typically
experiments in which an animal must manipulate an object, such as a lever,
to obtain a reward.)
When Skinner's second daughter, Deborah, was born in 1944, Skinner (who then
lived in Minnesota) constructed what was essentially a large version of a
hospital incubator for her, a tall box with a door at its base and a glass
window in front. This "baby tender," as Skinner called it, provided Deborah
with a place to sleep and remain comfortably warm throughout the severe
Minnesota winters without having to be wrapped in numerous layers of
clothing and blankets (and developing the attendant rashes). Deborah slept
in her novel crib until she was two and a half years old, and by all
accounts grew up a happy, healthy, thriving child.
The trouble began in October 1945, when the magazine Ladies' Home Journal
ran an article about Skinner's baby tender. The article featured a picture
of Deborah in a portable (and therefore smaller) version of the box, her
hands pressed against the glass, under the headline "Baby in a Box." People
who didn't read the article carefully, merely glanced at the picture, or
heard about the article from someone else but didn't see it themselves
confused the baby tender with a Skinner box and jumped to the conclusion
that Skinner was raising his daughter in a box for the purpose of conducting
psychological experiments on her. Outraged letter-writers protested that a
child should not be "kept in a box" and "subjected to experiments like an
animal."
Over the years the details about Skinner's baby tender (which he
unsuccessfully tried to market under the names "Heir Conditioner" and
"Aircrib") became more fuzzily remembered, and by the mid-1960s (when
Deborah turned twenty-one), the rumor had started that Skinner's now
psychotic and suicidal daughter had sued him for traumatizing her by raising
her in a box and conducting psychological experiments upon her. In fact, she
grew up about as normally as can be, remained close to her father, and
quipped years later that "I'm pretty sure I'm not crazy. And I don't seem to
have committed suicide."
Last updated: 9 August 2000
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