I have been following this discussion for some time now. And I find your
comments to be right on the mark. Metaphysical speculation tends to become
simplified generalizations of universal proportions. The global assertions
such as all is Quality really don't tell us anything. Don't get me wrong I
am actually quite sympathetic to Pirsig's ideas. However to toss in memes
and evolution and what-have-you without any methodological rigor is
ill-founded (in my view).
John C. Lawton
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of B. Skutvik
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:23 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: MD Memetics
Kenneth Van Oost
and MoQ Discussers
It is difficult to comment on your memetics introduction without
sounding like one sectarian hitting another over the head with his
Bible, but you throw in a 'quality' here and a 'level' there as if
these terms from the MOQ have some role in the memetics theory
although in a more secondary sense. But this is turning things
upside down, the meme notion have some MOQ may have some
MOQ relevance, but let me try to explain.
Many philosophers (or the modern variant: "science-writers")
have forward theories of how reality works, but not one has gone at
the root of what Pirsig calls SOM. Why? Because no-one
has identified any subject/object METAPHYSICS. Don't
misunderstand me. All start by attacking the mind/matter duality.
It's ALL WRONG they claim: reality is not divided, it is whole, it is
X or Y or whatever. This is the idealist half. The other camp also
claims that reality is one, but now everything is fallouts
of matter; mind an extraordinary complicated matter
case.
What both camps overlook is that their wholistic theories won't
work because they haven't really left the SOM. It sounds so
promising at the start, but round the first bend they meet the mind-
matter ghost again. For instance you open part 2 with .."The
question of whether 'reality' 'exist' or not is rather
silly/fallacious and useless ..etc. You end up with a solipsist
stance - which I admire you for, at least you are a consistent
thinker. It was that stance which broke P.of ZMM and started his
Quality quest.
Many come to the MOQ discussion and say: "Look, my theorist,
says exactly what Pirsig says". But no - nobody has said anything
faintly resembling Pirsig. If Dawkins had done so we would have
had a MOM (Metaphysics of Memes) He would have said: There is
nothing but MEMES, Dynamic Memes and various levels of static
memes, the first one being Inorganic Memes...a.s.o. But he could
not do so - naturally - respectable scientists or academic
philosophers don't want to get locked up and given shock
treatment. Not that every MOQ adherent is considered mad - not
now, not after Pirsig - but his ordeal shows what it cost the first
pioneer to leave the perimeters of SOM.
I sounds as if Dawkins says that everything is quality (selfishness
is a quality), but his selfishness starts with Life and as this is the
second stage of MOQ's static sequence, the Memetic is - at best -
one step behind the MOQ, but in my opinion it is a an Intellectual
pattern and thus three steps behind. A highly evolved Intellectual
pattern admittedly, one that honestly tries to get out of the subject-
object embrace, but fails for the above said reasons.
According to the MOQ all these theories; Memetics and other - for
instance when physicists try to come to grips with the Quantum
strangeness (ever heard of the multi-verse one?) - is Intellect having
met its static limits and churns out ever more subject/object-
related stuff. It will continue to do so until the Quality Metaphysics
is recognized.
Sincerely
Bo Skutvik
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