Hello everyone
RISKYBIZ9@aol.com wrote:
>
> ROGER JUMPS IN ON MEMES
>
> Hi Dan!
>
> I have been a long proponent that the theory of memetic evolution ties in
> exceptionally well with the MOQ's social evolution. Please let me take a
> hand at answering your questions..... First, let me offer a cut and pasted
> synopsis of the issue from my personal writings....
Hi Roger
Thank you for sharing your writings. I've tried to keep my comments to a
minimum as I really don't know what I am talking about. Of course that's
nothing new...
>
> (cut'n'paste)
>
> Like genes, and unlike animal societies, memes are subject to selection,
> variation and duplication. Therefore, once we developed the ability to
> imitate, memetic evolution became inevitable. The rapid evolution of man and
> society over the last million years or so can be explained via the
> positive-sum co-evolution of genes and memes.
First, evolution must certainly be working on animal society memes too
for otherwise how would such complex relationships evolve? It would seem
animal memes are also subject to selection, variation and duplication
although not to the complex extent of human society. Second, while
memetic evolution may tend to spontaneously occur the ability to imitate
would seem somehow to be itself a meme, arising as a conflict between
inorganic and biological patterns of value. After all, the animal
kingdom is filled with the ability to imitate environmental
surroundings. Third, the rapid evolution of man cannot be explained by
the positive sum co evolution of genes and memes without mentioning
Dynamic Quality.
>
> Memes allow social patterns to compete, to evolve and to become significantly
> more dynamic than anything in the animal world.
I can't help but notice this seems to celebrate human-centricity rather
than avoid it. In order to really begin forming any type of
understanding with Universe we must look for universal principles, not
human centered principles. Most assuredly any entomologist will tell you
insect societies rival our own Dynamically and anyone who has lived with
animals for an extended period will tell you their social patterns are
every bit as Dynamic as our own; what lacks in both cases is static
quality complexity.
>
> **************
> Now, let me address the issues that you raise:
>
> DAN:
> >From what I've
> read there seems a tendency for memeticists to either assign the value
> of memes to the brain in some as yet unidentified way or make the claim,
> as you seem to be doing here, that memes exist entirely independent of
> the brain but act upon us when we become aware of them.
>
> ROG:
> Memes are imitatable (duplicatable/replicatable) social/intellectual patterns
> of interaction. The only answer to this question involves a major detour
> into the heart of the MOQ, not memetic theory. Hopefully the above
> clarification of memes helps you to understand the issue enough to see the
> answer your question.
Not really but like I said, I know next to nothing about memes and
haven't read Dawkins or Blackmore. Could you explain how patterns of
interaction are different than patterns of value and how they fit into
the MOQ?
>
> Please do not get confused by the selfish 'solipsistic meme' stuff. This is
> dualistic, SOM-interpreted thinking. It is like saying "a cow is manure's
> way of making more manure.", or "A living organism is a gene's way to make
> more genes". or " I am influenced by my environment and since I am
> fundamentally divided from my environment then I can't have free will" or
> "How can mind influence matter?".
Not to become irritated might be better advice. :)
>
> Memetic theory, as with most dualistic western intellectual patterns, can
> offer great insights to the MOQ, but only if we filter out the SOM Platypi
> and replace it with Values and patterns of values.
Well, it seems to me the MOQ would offer greater insight into memetic
theory rather than the other way around then, no?
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
Dan
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