Greetings to one and all.
> ROG:
> OK, I will ask....
>
> Exactly how is it that we suppressed economic advancement in all these
> countries over the past 4000 years or so? What needs explaining is why
> free enterprise democracies have been so successful since their creation
(and
> the answer wasn't exploitation), not why primitive societies stayed that
> way.(If you want the lesson I can provide it)
The answer to this question has been given in a number of recent books; I'll
point to two: Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond, and The Wealth and
Poverty of Nations by David Landes. The answer comes in two parts - the
first is luck, the second is high quality culture. The luck comes from the
fact that Europe benefited from a number of geographical and ecological
quirks - temperate climate, high differentiation within a small area, the
availability of useful animals that could be domesticated (cattle, sheep and
horses). The combination of attributes in Europe did not exist anywhere
else - that is luck, not virtue. The high quality culture embodies things
like rule of law, respect for property rights, openness to democratic (and
therefore DQ) change and so on and so forth. This is virtue, not luck.
I believe that human nature is the same anywhere, and that, if you took a
baby born in eg Somalia, and raised her or him in the US, they would grow up
to be hugely productive - in other words, we all have the capacity to
respond to a high quality environment. The problem is not with other
peoples, but with cultures and with governments. In this context we have an
obligation to extend that high quality culture elsewhere, in whatever
morally acceptable fashion we can. This is what is sometimes called
globalisation. I think we can also afford to be generous - I read recently
that the amount of wealth transferred during the 1990s from the third world
to the West in interest payments on debt amounted to four Marshall Plans. I
think that qualifies as a suppression of economic advancement.
>>ROG:
Well said. I think we need to lead by example and "teach others how to
fish"
as they say. However, it cannot be in response to a violent act, as it just
encourages more violence. I know America, and after we enforce justice we
invariably offer our aid and love. Germany, Italy and Japan, among others,
can attest to that.
>>
It is not correct that the US 'invariably' offers good things after a war.
The most relevant recent example relates to Iraq. Frankly, Bush jr is
getting to finish the job for Bush sr. I have always thought that once you
have been pushed to resort to war, then there is no mercy in not finishing
the job - the wound festers and becomes worse. The coalition should have
gone into Baghdad and set up an interim government in just the same way that
happened in Japan or Germany after WW2. That we did not was a failure of
nerve. The West does need to think seriously about what sort of global
society it wishes to see, and then, in a war context make it true that
"after we enforce justice we invariably offer our aid and love."
Why did we lose our nerve? I would say it was due to an emaculation of our
intellectual culture, and the low quality virus of relativist postmodernism.
But that's another debate.
BTW I spelt out some of my thinking as 'four theses' because I wanted to
make it clear, and make each part open to separate comments or corrections.
Platt or Rog or anyone else want to have a go at the specifics? I feel that
each time you say 'US is wonderful' I want to agree and then say that it is
missing the point. It is because the US is such a strong nation in so many
ways - and the people are so innately generous as individuals - that the
best hope for a good outcome from the present crisis is for the US to live
up to its own best ideals, not its worst practices. Acknowledging shades of
grey in the US self-image is surely something that can take place in the
context of MOQ discussion?
Sam
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