Back to ROG....
> TO: MARK
> FROM: ROG
<SNIP>
>
> ROG:
<SNIP>
> and competitive checks and balances is MUCH deeper than you assume. I
also
> must cringe at your characterization of American happiness as now meaning
> "wealth,consumption and decadent indulgence." This silly stereotype is
> laughable and says more about the statement maker than it does about the
300
> million people that it tries to encapsulate. You want decadence, we have
our
> share of it. If you want dedicated scientists or noble humanitarians --
> well, we probably have our share of them too. We have huge populations of
> devout religious believers, we have gang members, we have entrepeneurs,
and
> we have welfare mothers.
Naturally ROG. Your quite correct to point my observation as a generalism.
Which is why I talk about 'America' not Americans. You can't point to
America, you can't show it. Its just to damn big and varied and dynamic,
wonderful even. However unless you can create a theoretical entity and stick
some value flags on it then you can't ever make comments about any big
system.
Like thermodynamics were you can't ever talk about individual components
only of generalism (called probablity mechanics in that instance).
American flaws are world flaws that many nations around the world share.
When I compare my generation with my grandfathers We are so very much less
in so many ways. Greed is just to simplistic a description, but its a start.
> MARK:
> I am the last person to belittle America. I speak only to add balance to
> such discussion regarding America's supposed superiority in all things.
>
> ROG:
> I continue to be amazed at the wierd way that members gang up on the US.
I remember reading something by Bill Bryson (US born writer who lived his
adult life in the UK). How everyone who stayed in America was asked how they
liked it. They would then be asked if they preferred it to home (which ever
country). The American's were always dumbfounded by the idea that anyone
would ever prefer home to America. After all America is the greatest country
on Earth!
I see this well meaning but misguided attitude in many of the responses to
critical comments about America (big generalism America not Americans the
individuals)
A nation deeply in love with its founding ideals is no bad thing. However
love is blinding. It forms protective barriers around biological and social
quality strangles the intellectual.
"My country right or wrong" written by Chesterton in his essay The Defendant
has been used as a hymn of love for American patriotism. (I must concede
that Chesterton actually used the phrase to counter the attitude that it
espouses.
He said"'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think
of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'"
> Marco (an Italian) wrote one nice letter in respect for our loss, and the
> next thing I know we get stereotyped as a fanatical, pea pod, culturally
> retarded, oil stealing, bent people that got what we deserved. A few of
us
> respond that this might be a little bit petty and mean spirited and offer
> some opposing views, and then we get folks like yourself and John calling
us
> fat and indulgent pigs and religious fanatics to "add balance". Thanks
> partner! We needed it.
"add balance"!
I can only offer my sincere apologies for the upset I may have caused. It is
not my wish to injured to pride or esteem of you or your great nation.
> What is it about America that attracts so many snide, catty attacks? Do
> other countries really talk about us that much? If so , I guess I should
be
> honored. To be honest, we virtually never say anything good or bad about
> your countries (though sometimes people think the french are rude... I
don't
> know this to be the case, but in full disclosure I have heard it). Are
there
> mean editorials against us in other countries? Do politicians and
> intellectuals discuss us? If so, be careful. My guess is that you get
more
> of their agenda in what you learn of the country than you get of the
truth.
This is a fair observation. I would add that having absorbed a huge amount
of American culture over my thirty years of life (Like many Europeans). Our
comments are not informed by our understanding of the American reality, but
rather the American insanities.
> Though for the record, I really am a decadent, fat, drunken,
rittlin-taking
> Britney spears fan.
Is a tree a good model for a forest?
I am a relatively wealthy wasp professional, I'm as fat and decadent as they
come.
Is Britain a nation of decadent, fat drunkeds? You bet!
As a nation we (English) knock ourselves at every opportunity. Odd how a
national failing can also be a national strength..hint. hint! ;-)
> But then again i could be teasing. Seriously Mark, I understand you don't
> mean to be mean, and that America needs to listen to criticism.
Rog, I can appreciate your comments.
I never cease to be impressed by the time and thought that the members of
this list lavish on each other.
Mark
--M a r k L u c a s
l u c a s - d i g i t a l . c o m
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