Hi Platt
One of the reasons I find it hard to take your argument seriously is illustrated by the
following:
PIRSIG:
"Biological quality is necessary to the survival of life. But when it
threatens to dominate and destroy society, biological quality
becomes evil itself, the "Great Satan" of twentieth century
Western culture. One reason why fundamentalist Moslem cultures
have become so fanatic in their hatred of the West is that it has
released the biological forces of evil that Islam has fought for
centuries to control."
Chapter 24 - Lila
On 11 Oct 2001 at 13:32, Platt Holden wrote:
> It's hard for me to leave Pirsig's "quotes aside for awhile" because they
> tells us what the MOQ means. You are right, of course, that we can take
> the levels as Pirsig presented them and assign to them whatever
> meanings we wish. But if we are looking for what Pirsig says about the
> levels, then it seems to me we are limited pretty much to what he says,
> not what we would like him to say. We can surely disagree with the
> MOQ, but first we have to agree on what to disagree about.
>
On 14 Oct 2001 at 9:33, Platt Holden wrote:
> Yes, I pondered that passage many times and concluded that Pirsig is
> simply wrong in assigning the blame for Moslem hatred of the West on
> our release of biological forces of evil. What they really hate is our
> release of the intellectual forces of freedom that threaten their
> fundamentalist social religious forces.
So where it is convenient to (mis)use Pirsigs quotes to support your beliefs you do
so and where it isn't you just reject what he says as wrong.
It is quite obvious from the Pirsig quote that he considers at least a part of the
current conflict to be Social, which is completely at odds with what you have said in
the past on this very subject.
On 14 Oct 2001 at 9:33, Platt Holden wrote:
> If you think the MOQ takes the pacifist position that war is
> immoral, youre wrong.
If you are to argue coherently with me Platt then it would be useful if you didn't
misrepresent me where it suits you.
I have repeatedly said that I am not a pacifist.
I have not said that the MoQ takes the pacifist position W.R.T war - if you can show
otherwise please do so.
On 14 Oct 2001 at 9:33, Platt Holden wrote:
> When in doubt, accuse your opponent of being simplistic.
When this is correct I see no problem in pointing out the obvious. You have tried to
reduce the entire argument to a conflict of Biological patterns by misusing sections
of Lila and rejecting what Pirsig says where it fails to suit you. My accusations are
reasonable and accurate.
On 14 Oct 2001 at 9:33, Platt Holden wrote:
> Aren't you stretching it a bit, Horse? Nobody is saying people are literally germs.
> What I (and Pirsig) am saying is that criminals act like germs and
> should be treated accordingly. I know you can tell the difference
> between a fact, a metaphor and a simile, so it puzzles me why you
> keep insisting that germs and people are in fact identical. (You have to
> enjoy the irony of germ-like terrorists threatening to use germ warfare.)
Platt, when you say:
> PLATT:
> "I interpret the MOQ view to be that those who are terrorists and those
> countries who support and/or tolerate terrorists have the moral standing
> of germs and like germs must be deliberately and ruthlessly annihilated
> by all means at our disposal."
you are effectively saying that a class of people are the equivalent of germs which in
MoQ-ese is saying that some instances created by all 4 patterns of Value and
capable of responding to Dynamic Quality are the equivalent of other instances
created by the two lowest level patterns of Value and not capable of responding to
Dynamic Quality in an equivalent manner. This is clearly ridiculous.
There are other and better arguments to support your point of view but to mangle the
MoQ in this way is derisory.
Horse
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