I disagree. Wasn't Pirsig's point basically this: we
can experience Quality EVEN in motorcycle maintenance.
I don't think Pirsig POSITS a transcendental being
called Quality from whom we don't have access. His
point is we have access to Quality all the time, we
just don't look the right way. Our patterns bewitch
our minds. If you ride a motorcylce, learn to fix it
and you will be in tune with the experience of
quality. BUT to communicate pure Quality you have to
invoke language which invokes SOM and you are outside
Quality again. I guess our experience of Quality is
essentially private, as language lives in the world of
patterns. But we can share our faith in Quality
through knowing gestures such as this list.
I would say further that he would support an evolution
of patterns towards the end of the disruptiveness of
patterns. Intellectual patterns make it possible to
stop or pause the bewitchment of our minds by
language. Thus, patterns are good as they are Quality.
I think there is an either/or mentality (an SOM
problem of course) that patterns are disruptive
towards Quality. Well they can be both and to me that
is the whole point of ZAMM.
Angus.
--- Dave Moller <davemoller_nz@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My post was a bit ambiguous as the main approach was
> fekking about with the words rather than making the
> statement. However if we say quality and "seeing it
> directly" means the true reality then I believe that
> all our perceptions of reality are filtered by our
> patterns. And yes these do include the biological
> patterns, eg my eyes may have a different set up (eg
> colorblindness) so even something as simple as
> colour
> is different for me than you due to my patterns.
>
> Now, to see it directly (or lets say 100%
> accurately)
> then you need to either make your patterns 100%
> right,
> most patterns are a nearest thing type approach, or
> by
> removing the patterns altogether. Of course then
> you
> face the issue that without patterns then you are
> nothing and nothing would probably have a hard time
> percieving quality or reality...
>
> That probably doesn't actually make it much
> clearer...
>
> Anyway...
>
> Dave
>
>
> --- Valence <valence10@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hey >
> DAVE WROTE:
> > > Ah, but the only thing stopping you seeing
> > quality
> > > directly is your patterns.
> > > So to see quality directly you would have to
> > disrupt
> > > your patterns so much that you would be lucky
> to
> > make
> > > it back in one piece.
> >
> > This struck me as a very bizarre thought. The
> only
> > thing stopping you
> > [from] seeing Quality is your patterns??? But all
> > "you" are to begin with
> > is various patterns. Patterns of biology,
> > sociology, and intellect. If one
> > was to "disrupt" these patterns, there wouldn't be
> a
> > "you" left to perceive
> > Quality. I was hoping you might be more explicit
> in
> > identifying which
> > patterns you believe would have to be (and could
> be)
> > disrupted? Certainly
> > not biological patterns... if one disrupts these,
> he
> > is dead. Is your
> > position that it is the social/intellectual
> patterns
> > that block out the
> > direct perception of Q??? This also seems an
> > untenable position as it would
> > mean that social/intellectual evolution carries us
> > further from Quality,
> > rather than towards it, as is suggested repeatedly
> > in LILA.... Could you
> > clarify???
> >
> > Just wondering,
> > Rick
>
>
>
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