Hi Dave!
DB:
One of the problems with the kind of progress Roger describes
is that relatively few people actually benefit from it. The gap between rich
and poor grows wider everyday and those who are left behind are filled with
resentment and hate. But its not just about the haves and have nots. IMO the
battle that matters most is between social and intellectual values. It seems
that's what's going on in the world right now.
ROG:
The greatest 20th century gains in literacy, nutrition and lifespan have been
in developing countries. Income per person in developing countries has gone
up 200% in the past half a century (per the World Bank). The problem is not
fundamentally about haves and have nots, it is between societies that found
out how to progress and those that didn't. They are now finally making the
transition from primitive agricultural social cultures to more advanced
social organizations. However, they are WAY behind, and you are very right
that this creates resentment and hate.
The reason I add the initial caveat is that we need to get to solutions. The
solution imo is for the developing countries to DEVELOP and to limit their
population while they do so (as virtually all developed nations do). The
problem is that though they can learn much from those that have already made
the progression, they need to tailor it to their society. Easier said than
done.
DB:
As Roger rightly points out with Pirsig quotes, the social level has been
very successful in freeing the human organism from biological necessity...
BUT these same social values no longer represent evolutionary
progress. Their work is done and clinging to those static patterns can lead
to all sorts of oppression and pain. If you wat to talk about progress, the
intellectual level is where its at. As the other Pirsig quote says, a
culture that supports intellectual values is absolutely superior to one that
does not. So to anwser Roger's question, one has to measure the extent to
which a society, or a person, supports intellectual values. That's why I say
this is the battle that really matters. Its not really about health or
wealth. The widespread availablity of creature comforts doesn't really say
much about intellectual evolution, but the expansion of rights and freedoms
certainly does.
ROG:
I agree. I would add though that the developing nations still need to
develop socially. I also agree that progress is not inevitable, and that the
attack of fundamentalists on intellectual freedom can derail progress until
the problem is fixed. (and the fix may need to be to reduce inequality
between nations)
Rog
PS -- How are you doin? What is new?
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