Hi Sam, Bo,
GLENN (previously)
> If Godel's theorem applies to a metaphysics, it would mean that the "map of
> reality" itself is internally incomplete or inconsistent, which is a separate
> problem from the one of capturing the essence of a "terrain" sufficiently.
SAM
>Could you explain why you see these as two separate problems? I don't
>(necessarily) disagree that they are separate, just that I see them as two
>sides of the same coin. I do think that our maps of reality will never be
>both consistent and complete, but not because Godel's theorem applies to it
>directly - more because we can't capture the essence of the terrain
>flawlessly. Hence I see the problems as linked.
Maybe the best way to describe how these are separate problems is through
an analogy. Suppose a metaphysics is like a road map of your town.
If Godel's Incompleteness Thm applies to this road map, it means that, try as
you might, the map will always have missing lines on it where roads belong.
This is a separate problem from capturing the essence of roads in a town from
black squiggles on a piece of paper.
BO:
>..what do you think about the logic (flaw or not)
>that has bothered me all the time, namely that of the MOQ claiming to be an
>intellectual pattern and thus a creation of one of its own lesser parts. This
>grated my logical nerve until I found a respite in the so-called SOL
>interpretation: That the MoQ is something beyond intellect, which in this
>context becomes SOM. This alleviates the logic bend but creates a loop, the
>MOQ is itself! There is no terrain that a metaphysics is a map of; Its REALITY
>itself, full stop. This last is "allowed" (in my logic) but not really
>satisfactory for the down-to-earth- people who want it to be a better map.
The SOL interpretation concludes that Pirsig invented reality. Unless you
like being a figment of someone else's solipsism, this isn't for you.
Without going into details over this, let me just say that
this chicken-and-egg-like dilemma forces you to think about
the distinction between a discovery and a creation, between the
creation of a label for a pre-existing "thing" and the creation of
the "thing" itself. I don't have any neat answers for you, but I think
the MOQ complicates the issue by insisting that everything is created
(by the "measure of man"). We have Newton creating gravity in 1680, for
example. This is really troublesome. Time then becomes a very difficult
concept to reconcile with experience, and has all the "round and round"
earmarks of dualism.
BO:
>I became so interested after this remarkable post that I checked on your
>earliest entries Glenn, and found that you joined in September 99.
Thanks for the buttery sounding words, but honestly - I re-read my post -
it's not that remarkable. I'll always remember how nervous I was sending
that first post and how nice it was that someone [you] responded and welcomed
me to the MF, even though you went on to disagree with my comments.
BO:
>by declaring the intellectual level a problem (within the MOQ) in the sense
>that it broke the rule of "composition" (organisms composed of matter, societies
>composed of organisms ...etc.) this I guess I protested back then, but you may
>have had a new insight ...or?
Or what?
Yeah, it bothered me that the compositional theme didn't follow through.
Intellectuals weren't composed of societies. I remember one other person's
first ever post also complaining of this. Unfortunately it was also her last
post.
But I dropped the subject when DMB invented the now time-honoured MOQ snub
that my arguments against the intellectual level were due to my inability to
"see" the intellectual level. Ouch! Is this what you're hinting at when you
say "...or?"? If so, ouch again, three years later! When I tried to explain
the compositional theme further to David in a couple of private posts, he
still didn't grasp the concept, and misconstrued this to mean that I thought
size mattered, or something.
Glenn
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