Elliot and Y'all:
He said:
Ants are capable of communicating information after birth, therefore the
information isnt instinctual but stems from interaction. but the
information is also not symbolic.
I say:
Ant communication is biochemical. It not social just because they work in a
group. The cells of your body communicate at this level too, but its not
social. Both CAN be detected with scientific instruments and is therefore
NOT subjective, but social patterns are subjective.
He said:
The ability to process symbols would be intellectual, correct?
I say:
symbolic communication begins at the social level, as in the example of
pre-historic cave art, etc. However, the intellectual level does that same
thing.
He said:
and the ability to share information and thus have complex systems of
animals completeing smaller tasks in an overall social goal is socail,
correct? Pirsig says no the the second one, i cant imagine why.
I say:
Again you confuse collective with social. Animals are following the law of
the jungle, biological imperitives, not social goals or "the law".
He said:
Having both a social level and an intellectual level that both refer to
exactly the same group seems pointless.
I say:
Oh, jeez. As far as static patterns go, the difference between the social
and intellectual levels is the single most important distinction Pirsig
makes. It clears up James' pragmatism. It explains the Victorians,
fundamentalism, fascism, human rights, science as opposed to religion. Hell,
it explains everything that matters to us as human beings. To say such a
distinction is pointless only reveals your own profound misunderstanding of
the MOQ. I don't mean to pick on you, Elliot, but you're just not getting a
key concept.
He said:
The intellectual would have to be on top for a very long time in order to
get comfortable enough and begin to evolve tools for its own use that could
spawn another level.
I say:
Yep. That seems right.
He said:
Also, i think i define intellect as something different than others here.
Is intellect not exsistance of the concept of self and the ability to latch
dynamic experiences into static thoughts which are based on social
mediations such as language. Is not intellect anything with a memory that
can store strings of words (social, and therefore all the biological,
inorganic and chaotic patterns that come before it) and understand them?
Cause i suggested Pirsig said this and someone told me they'd eat their
book if that were true. Well? whats your idea of the intellect then? (i
hope it isnt some elitist philosopher king notion)
I say:
Oh, boy. This is the Gordian knot of convoluted logic, and like Alexander, I
shall not even attempt to untie it. Words were used and remembered long
before the intellect evolved and are therefore social level things. And it
was me who offered to eat my copy of Lila should you ever find a quote where
Pirsig said... I don't recall. It was something entirely un-Pirsigian like,
"the intellectual level was born when the first animal looked around and
said 'hey, I'm different than you." But of course, I'd never actually eat a
book. I'm too fond of my digestive system to abuse it in that way. I was
just expressing a high level of certainty on the matter.
He said:
shortly i'll be posting an essay about the domination of the intellect by
society along the lines of Frankfurt school social theory and One
Dimensional society which explians pretty much what i think the social and
intellect levels are. Its horribly utopian, hope that doesnt throw anyone
off.
I say:
Hmmm. That sounds like it would be unhelpful at best. I think it would be
better to first gain a basic understanding of the MOQ. Then you can begin to
think about posting an essay. But its not up to me. Whatever.
P.S. What could possibly be wrong with Pirsig's annotated description of
society? Its the dictionary definition. We have a common language. Why not
use it. The alternative seems wildly and unnecessarily complicated.
Hugs and kisses,
DMB
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