It is easy to conceive of a societal mind: for example, we have the
deliberative and decision-making processes of government, at many levels,
from international to local block community.
For a fascinating look at different levels of living systems and their
'brain' functions, see James Greer Miller, LIVING SYSTEMS. I understand
that it is out in paperback. Miller starts with cells, organs, organisms
(like humans), organizations, and societies as his principles hierarchy.
Lawry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Maggie Hettinger
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:49 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Half=baked puzzle Was: MD Consciousness
Hi, Elliot, Bo, and all,
On Saturday, July 6, 2002, at 05:13 AM, elliot hallmark wrote:
Maggie,
you said:
If we go Pirsig, mind is stored in society, society's stored in
biology, biology's stored in the inorganic.
maggie
Elliot:
Well, perhaps you chose a bad verb on accident or without thinking?
"Stored in" is a deliberate choice, based on Vygotsky's work, which says
this is where the mind is stored, and in five years I've never wanted to
change that basic concept. See my ancient essay if you like,
(members.iglou.com/hettingr/pirsig/DefiningSocial.html)
However, your point:
Mind is not stored in society, it encompasses and trancends it. stored
in makes it sound like mind is less than society, when in fact mind is more
than (although society is more fundemental {span v. depth}). Based on,
dependant upon, woven from, i could accept those but not stored in, society
is not a box which contains mind, mind is far more than society or biology
could ever hope to grasp!
And that's the beauty. Synergy, transcendence, Dynamic Quality. The sum is
more than the parts, yet social patterns of value are the parts.
Each of these levels really is distinct, because there is a historical,
evolutional transcendence that has transformed the capabilities of those
older parts, across the entire ecology/biosphere/universe. (And here I've
wandered the ground Andre is searching, and come back to rest in the
understanding that the four levels are actually highly significant.)
To Andre (with apologies that I've really not followed your
conversation)--
One of the reasons it is so difficult to separate the levels is that,
creation continues at all levels, yet once a superior level has been formed,
it transforms and effects all others, so the interactions are complex.
Still, I bet there's a simple (!)mathematical type of correlation, based on
multiplication, that would fall out into highly recognizable and
commonly-shared cultural categories.
"i"=inorganic,"b"=biological, "s"=social, "I"=Intellectual
beginning of exercise:
pure i
pure i X pure i = compounded i
compounded i X compounded i X pure i
...
TRANSCENDENCE | OPPOSITION-->biological patterns of value
pure b X pure i
pure b X compounded i
compounded b X pure i
pure b X pure b = compounded b
compounded b X pure b
compounded b X compounded b
...
...
....
..........
..................................................
aaaaak. How does this stuff go?
TRANSCENDENCE | OPPOSITION-->social patterns of value
etc.
Maybe Wilbur has identified examples of these different combinations
already sorted?.
One of the tricks in the sorting is to realize that the same phenomenon
can be called differently depending on which side of the transcendence is
being intuited.
=================================
Mineral * Animal * Vegetable * Human
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
inorganic * Biological * Social *Intellectual
=================================
And another piece of the puzzle is that diagram I haven't been able to
draw out in email yet, but conceptually it is TWO of those curve graphs, in
which one entire drawing, social, is turned as a plane to become the
imitation axis of the imitation/choice diagram. Erin and Elliot's
conversation fits on it nicely.
;) Hope I'm not being rude. Wish I could play more.
cheers,
maggie
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