Hi Maggie,
Read your essay. Very impressed. Now I have a better appreciation of Q-Social. And although it hit me as odd at first that 'mind is stored in society' after reading your essay, it does make sense. It is so obvious I kind of missed it: our mind's use a culturally provided language to think with that's mind/Q-intellect being stored in Q-social! Duh!! That is what you meant! My own phrase: "People shape, and are shaped by, ideas." Is an example of Q-Social at work. We are shaped by ideas that we were taught, that is the Q-Social. We shape those ideas in our own Q-Intellect and then if those ideas accepted they become part of the next generations Q-social! In MOQ terms "Q-Intellect shape, and are shaped by, Q-Social."
An appreciative and compulsive reader,
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Maggie Hettinger
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 5:48 AM
Subject: Half=baked puzzle Was: MD Consciousness
Hi, Elliot, Bo, and all,
On Saturday, July 6, 2002, at 05:13 AM, elliot hallmark wrote:
Maggie,
you said:
If we go Pirsig, mind is stored in society, society's stored in biology, biology's stored in the inorganic.
maggie
Elliot:
Well, perhaps you chose a bad verb on accident or without thinking?
"Stored in" is a deliberate choice, based on Vygotsky's work, which says this is where the mind is stored, and in five years I've never wanted to change that basic concept. See my ancient essay if you like, (members.iglou.com/hettingr/pirsig/DefiningSocial.html)
However, your point:
Mind is not stored in society, it encompasses and trancends it. stored in makes it sound like mind is less than society, when in fact mind is more than (although society is more fundemental {span v. depth}). Based on, dependant upon, woven from, i could accept those but not stored in, society is not a box which contains mind, mind is far more than society or biology could ever hope to grasp!
And that's the beauty. Synergy, transcendence, Dynamic Quality. The sum is more than the parts, yet social patterns of value are the parts.
Each of these levels really is distinct, because there is a historical, evolutional transcendence that has transformed the capabilities of those older parts, across the entire ecology/biosphere/universe. (And here I've wandered the ground Andre is searching, and come back to rest in the understanding that the four levels are actually highly significant.)
To Andre (with apologies that I've really not followed your conversation)--
One of the reasons it is so difficult to separate the levels is that, creation continues at all levels, yet once a superior level has been formed, it transforms and effects all others, so the interactions are complex. Still, I bet there's a simple (!)mathematical type of correlation, based on multiplication, that would fall out into highly recognizable and commonly-shared cultural categories.
"i"=inorganic,"b"=biological, "s"=social, "I"=Intellectual
beginning of exercise:
pure i
pure i X pure i = compounded i
compounded i X compounded i X pure i
...
TRANSCENDENCE | OPPOSITION-->biological patterns of value
pure b X pure i
pure b X compounded i
compounded b X pure i
pure b X pure b = compounded b
compounded b X pure b
compounded b X compounded b
...
...
....
..........
..................................................
aaaaak. How does this stuff go?
TRANSCENDENCE | OPPOSITION-->social patterns of value
etc.
Maybe Wilbur has identified examples of these different combinations already sorted?.
One of the tricks in the sorting is to realize that the same phenomenon can be called differently depending on which side of the transcendence is being intuited.
=================================
Mineral * Animal * Vegetable * Human
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
inorganic * Biological * Social *Intellectual
=================================
And another piece of the puzzle is that diagram I haven't been able to draw out in email yet, but conceptually it is TWO of those curve graphs, in which one entire drawing, social, is turned as a plane to become the imitation axis of the imitation/choice diagram. Erin and Elliot's conversation fits on it nicely.
;) Hope I'm not being rude. Wish I could play more.
cheers,
maggie
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