Howdy Scott!
[ROG:] The US has one of
the strongest University systems of any continent. Most importantly, it
has an incredibly rich success record in science and mathematics. I
believe the US can hold its own with any nation in renowned scientific
discoveries, technological breakthroughs, medical advances, etc.
[SCOTT:]Correct. Serving the Giant, sucking up to government and
business, and more and more so as time goes on. (Don't actually know if
it is any different elsewhere.)
ROG:
I never implied it was nirvhana. Just that it held up well to its peers.
[ROG] As for
philosophology, which I view as lower grade intellect,
I think that James, Dewey and Pirsig alone hold up well to most countries.
[SCOTT:] Didn't I make an exception of the pragmatists? And didn't James
and Dewey go way out of favor in the US after WWII? And isn't Pirsig
almost totally ignored in academia?
ROG:
Yes, I agree, but I don't put much credibility in the professional judgement
of philosophologists. If I can pick up hallowed texts of Kant or Hegel or
Schoppie or Kierkie or whomever and read their stuff and laugh at the
proposterous assumptions that sneak into their beliefs, then I have little
respect for the profession. (Granted I have the advantage of 200 years of
social intellectual advance). I do find value in pragmatism, especially in
Dewey. (For the record, Pirsig has some bad ideas in his metaphysics too)
[ROG:] And there
is always Pirsig's favorite philosopher -- Abe Lincoln.
[SCOTT:]And what were Americans doing while Kant and Hegel were active?
Can't think of anyone, unless you count the political guys (Madison et
al) and they were just putting flesh on prior work.
ROG:
I accept your answer. From a practical, "everyday reality" view, which was
better intellectual advancement? The German idealist movement, or the
practical, studied implementation of the first modern representative
democracy? (and its essential extension to all races and genders with the
support of Abe and the later suffrage movement.)
SCOTT:
As to your
criticism, isn't what Nietszche, Heidegger and the French postmodernists
are all about that of attacking "supported assumptions" to show their
emptiness? Or are you still working under the assumption that there are
some (non-mathematical) static patterns that are eternally true? (N.B.,
as I've said before, my admiration for this work is only partial, in
that they haven't made the mystical turn that Pirsig and the Kyoto
School do, which saves the day from nihilism).
ROG:
I am right with you on these points too.
[ROG:]The US also has a strong intellectual record in politics and economics.
The creation of the first modern version of Democracy was quite an
achievement, for example.
[SCOTT:]Yes, a social success, and that is vitally important. But more
important is intellectual/spiritual success. According to the MOQ, no?
ROG:
I consider democracy, economics, science, math, philosophy, technology etc to
be intellectually guided or influenced (I try to avoid uni-level labels. I
find most complex concepts can be considered from many perspectives with many
influences). As for spiritual growth, I have absolutely no idea how anyone
would measure nations spiritually.
Remember, it is John who started this argument by positing that America was
abnormally deficient in 4th level quality. I can argue the 4th level, but i
think we should be cautious about going into spirituality comparisons. John
thinks he can prove we are "being deficient" or something. How would one of
us even try to prove "my being is bigger than yours"? And doesn't trying to
prove it prove the opposite? Hmmm... Maybe I did prove it....Oops,
nevermind...(insert infinite regress)
[ROG:]Space exploration was another notable
intellectual success.
[SCOTT:]I prefer inner space exploration. Doesn't cost as much.
ROG:
I recommend both frontiers. The returns look sweet either way.
But I could be wrong,
Rog
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