Hi Bo, Scott , John B [our resident lurker :)], and all,
Before I can respond in detail to Bo's email of July 21st, some clear
foundation needs to be laid. So, this email will be laying a foundation.
Once we can agree on that foundation I will respond to Bo's July 21st email
and we can continue our inquiry on SOLAQI, S/O divides, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: <skutvik@online.no>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness
[I left the above in as a place setting so we know what email we will be
getting back to.]
Now on to foundational questions.
Pirsig set up a "game" of metaphysics in Lila. The rules of the game
require everything that exists in all of reality to be able to be
categorized/classified under Pirsig's 4 levels of Static patterns of
Quality. I can't find the cite for this but I don't think that is
necessary. We have only those four choices with Dynamic Quality as the
Ground/Goal of Being as the last level. The major stumbling point is
finding a place for the "Mind" stuff.
As I presented in my 1st essay I give a list of and description of Brain to
Mind processes. Here is a list and how I classify them. Once we have
agreement of the stuff listed when can move forward:
1) Raw Sensory data: This is Inorganic photons, sound waves also Inorganic.
Then the Biochemistry of taste [organic], pain sensation =organic, smell
biochemistry=organic. This is non-controversial. If there is a question
please raise it in your reply.
2) Feelings: this is moving away from Biochemistry and begins to cross over
into...? These are the experience of feeling and not the thinking about the
feeling as to explaining it or understanding it. Just the pure sensation
which happens before we think about what it is and what it means.
a) unpleasant sensation in my stomach or a feeling of nausea or the
sensation of pain from the heat of the stove, or etc. These still are level
2 Organic biochemistry.
b) "feeling like I am being watched" this is not solely biochemistry.
c) "lucky hunch" not solely biochemistry
d) sexual pleasure: a mixture of biochemistry and a feeling
e) the feeling that is the reason we laugh: not just biochemistry
f)etc.
All of the above are not just biochemistry. They are not Social level 3
stuff! This is all individually experienced stuff. We may have cultural
influences as to why we find something funny, sexy, lucky, etc but it is not
a social event or a collective experience. This is only private individual
stuff/events. Under Pirsig's rules of the game there is only one level that
all of this has got to go. That is 4th level, what Pirsig called "The
Intellect". I don't care whether the word "Intellect" is appropriate or
adequate or whatever, this is the label Pirsig gave us and we are stuck by
his rule. Thus all this feeling stuff I listed in (2) has got to be level
4. Placing it in level 3 Social strikes me as odd and convoluted.
3) Emotions: This is moving further away from biochemistry and into "mind
stuff"
a) Jealousy, anger, rage, righteous indignation, all these emotions have a
biochemical affect in our body going on but they seem to me to be thoughts,
experiences which have been processed and word labels have been applied to
the experience. Again this to me has got to be 4 level stuff. Calling is
Social is wrong. Again there are social reasons why certain things make me
angry, sends me into a rage, jealous, righteously indignant, etc. But the
experience when it is happening is individual and personal. Which leaves
only level 4=Q Intellect.
4)Irrational thoughts
a) Dreams
b) hallucinations
c) idiosyncratic beliefs: phobias, fetishes, "Jesus talks to me out of my
left toe", etc
d) drug/alcohol induced sensory experience
All of this stuff has a biochemical component but it is again not just
biochemistry. It is again personal, individual experience and thus not
Social. We are again left with Level 4 Q-Intellect.
Okay, I thing you are getting the point. Level 4 "Q-Intellect" is not just
rational thinking. It is the catch all place for all and every and any
"mental stuff". The is the only choice Pirsig gives us. Unless you are
trying to distort the Organic and or the Social level.
Thus, if SOLAQI means something it must mean Subject/Object Logic as my list
of 1-4, because all of that list is included in Q-Intellect.
Now, you may not have a problem with this. I do not. But I didn't invent
SOLAQI, so you need to address these foundational questions of what is
included in Q-Intellect.
Moving us towards clarity,
Gary
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:28 BST