Hi Scott,
You responded to me before I got to respond to you.
Anyway...
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott R <jse885@spinn.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness
> Gary,
>
> I think you're making a couple of foundational mistakes here. First,
> expecially on the lower levels, you are classifying by the supposed
> mechanism of the sensation, rather than the content of the sensation.
> The fact (which we have through the intellectual work of physiologists)
> that tastes and smells arise through molecules tickling nerve cell
> endings has nothing to do with whether what we taste is inorganic, or
> biological. That is, we should be classifying according to content, not
> to how we arrived at the content. We never experience photons or
> variations in air compression. We seldom experience light or sound. We
> mostly experience trees, walls, pictures, birds singing, etc.
>
> Second, you seem to be saying because an experience is individual, then
> it belongs in the 4th category. By this logic, since all experiences are
> individual (the only exception I can think of would be telepathy), then
> everything belongs to the fourth level. This would be solipsism, I
> guess. It's certainly not the MOQ. Again, I think you are making a
> mistake by thinking that feelings and thoughts can be considered as
> static patterns all by themselves, ignoring that feelings and thoughts
> (and sensations) are always feelings of X and thoughts of Y.
>
> In sum, your mistake is to ask "in what category are the different types
> of mental events". Instead, I think one should classify by what prompts
> the events. So a feeling is, for example, a feeling of anger at someone,
> and so that one is social, whether that someone is in my face at the
> moment or I am reviewing a social interaction much later. A feeling of
> hunger is biological. A feeling of satisfaction at solving a
> mathematical puzzle is intellectual.
GARY'S RESONSE: You are right in saying that I classify "Second, you seem to
be saying because an experience is individual, then it belongs in the 4th
category."
This is my position. All Thinking, all mental experiences is 4th level
stuff. I am saying that any and all mental events and processess at some
point become not the mechanics of the process which are biological and
inorganic under that. Thinking is a step above biology and physics.
Thiking is done by individuals. It has to be recognized as such and put
somewhere and the only place that Pirsig gives us is Q-Intellect. Hence all
thinking is Q-Intellect.
As for "), then everything belongs to the fourth level. This would be
solipsism," No, I clearly recognize that there exists an Internal Reality
[which is our mind and the experinces of perception] and External Reality
[All that is not in my 'head'.] Every thought is a human individual
thought. Q-Intellect is where Pirsig put all mentual stuff. Everything
non-mental is found outside of a human mind and hence to be found amongst
the other 3 levels. All of the other levels help create and affect the
mind/4th level. But all thoughts are found in the mind/Q-Intellect.
Feelings are individual they can and do have Social and Biological causes.
A feeling is my experience of the workings of my body caused by, in some
cases, a interaction with another person, hence a Social interaction. My
experience is personal, internal to me, not experienced by anyone else and
thus has to be found in a place on Pirsig's chart that represents the
individual and not the collective. Q-Intellect is the only place.
Now, If you were to ask me how to chart out reality I would not have made
the MOQ with its only 4 levels. I find this map overly simplistic for
things outside of Ethics and morality. Hense my designation of Pirsig 4
level map as E-MOQ . Ethical perspective of a map of Quality.
My essay's have my ideas of mapping reality.
I do want to get to S/O Thinking, the S/O divide, and Mystics revelation of
going beyond that divide. But all this ground work needs to be done first.
We need to have our terms understood as best we can before we move on.
As for: when you start off with: ,"I think you're making a couple of
foundational mistakes here. First,
expecially on the lower levels, you are classifying by the supposed
mechanism of the sensation, rather than the content of the sensation.
The fact (which we have through the intellectual work of physiologists)
that tastes and smells arise through molecules tickling nerve cell
endings has nothing to do with whether what we taste is inorganic, or
biological. That is, we should be classifying according to content, not
to how we arrived at the content. We never experience photons or
variations in air compression. We seldom experience light or sound. We
mostly experience trees, walls, pictures, birds singing, etc"
GARY'S RESPONSE: I do not believe I am making a mistake by separating "how
we arrive at content" from "content'. Clarity arises when we do this. And
Pirsig's 4 levels require it. Pirsig did not just give us SOCIAL and
INTELLECT. He also gave us the other two. The other two is where the
mechanics lies, at least when you are examining a human being. We are a
Dynamic Stable Pattern of many levels. Inorganic, Organic, and Intellect.
The Social level is found in the Q-Intellect level, when we are considering
a single human. We have been socialized and thus have internalized our
culture. Hence the SOCIAL Level has become part of the mental stuff we
utilized in our thinking. The SOCIAL, The Organic and the Inorganic are all
the stuff of External Reality that we, a single human encounter. By
classifying by content and the mechanisms of how we arrive at the content I
am forcing us to be clear in our statements. The mechanisms of our senses
is Inorganic and Organic. What we experience as tasting : good, bad,
bitter, sweet, like an apple, etc. all of that is our experience of
understanding and processing that sense data. It is Thinking! Low level
thinking, but thinking none the less. I have no problem with saying
everything we experience is in our mind/Q-Intellect. I avoid solipsism by
clearly stating that everything is not only mind but also there exists
External Reality which is matter/energy outside of my experience of reality.
The experience of reality is my personal individual Internal Reality. You
have your own individual and personal experience of reality, your own
Internal Reality/Q-Intellect.
You claimed that what I am doing is "It's certainly not the MOQ. " Actually
I am being utterly Orthodox Pirsig!!! He said in Lila everything can be
classified by his 4 levels! Everything! I am being utterly and accurately
MOQ when I go about saying that this thing is level 1 and this thing is
level 2, etc. This is the rules as laid out by Pirsig. This is part of
what the MOQ is all about.
Seeking clarity,
Gary
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