From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Oct 27 2002 - 23:17:27 GMT
Steve, Sam and all the wannabe sages: -)
> Steve said:
> In trying to find Biblical support for the Jesus movement as a conflict
> between intellect and society, so often I am reminded of Jesus seeming to
> sidestep social level questions for something completely different that
few
> could understand and I have trouble seeing as intellectual improvements on
> social code.
Steve adds: I didn't mean to say that he was anti-intellectual or pro-social
in these examples. I meant that his purpose was not to critique society or
to improve society with intellectual products, but to talk about something
that has nothing to do with society.
DMB says:
Right. For several reasons, it wouldn't work to put Jesus into the 20th
century's social/intellectual dilemma. If Wilber is correct, he was way
beyond intellectual and into the mystical realm. But, it seems to me that he
was trying to get people to see past conventional truths, to embrace
something larger and insisted that live was about something more than our
daily bread. He was some kind of social rebel, no? He got pretty darn angry
about some of the norms, defied others. Surely, if we're looking for the
MOQ's take on such a character we'd look at the Brujo, the function of
contrarians, saints and sages. Stuff like that.
Steve:
Jesus the mystic said, "forget about the law, pursue
DQ (God). The mystic's answer to moral questions is simple--just make
yourself perfect and do whatever comes naturally--but it is too simple. So
he added If you don't know how to pursue DQ, "all the law will fall into
place if you love your neighbor, so do that."
DMB says:
Love your neighbor!? How could he say such a monsterous thing! No wonder
they nailed him up. Jeeze. Just kidding. The cool thing about this kind of
thing is that it is so simple that a five year old child could understand it
and at the same time this idea can be socially, intellectually, and
spiritually justified. It works at every level. The concept only opens and
deepens as we grow.
Steve:
Wherever he took a side in the social-intellectual conflict, I think he took
the intellectual side, but I think there is also a biblical vision of Jesus
that wasn't interested in social questions like whether the Jews should pay
taxes to the Romans. To ask him that question was to miss the point of what
this mystic was trying to teach: "The Kingdom of God is within you." Find
it and you won't have anymore questions.
DMB says:
Right. The Gnostic gospels emphasize this internal kingdom and much of it
makes sense in terms of modern psychology. Another one of those things that
not only included in the higher levels, but also improved by that
transcendence.
Steve:
This is also not to say that the view of Jesus as a mystic is the only one
or even the most defensible through biblical scholarship. I only meant to
point out that there is a vision of Jesus portrayed in the Bible that
doesn't fall in the moral hierarchy of moq.
Dmb says:
Pirsig certainly makes a place for the mystic within the MOQ, a very honored
place. The mystics and saints are an evolutionary force, they're about
dynamic advances of all kinds. This is my favorite way to view the guy and
it can be justified to some extent by the re-discovered early texts and the
scholarship about them. Have you read Elaine Pagels' GNOSTIC GOSPELS? Good
stuff.
Just for fun, I should mention another way to see Jesus, one that has much
less to do with the historical figure; as a myth. I suppose most bible
scholars would be upset by this approach, so don't tell them.
Alan Watts' wrote a book called MYTH AND RITUAL IN CRISTIANITY. In it he
takes elements from both the Orthodox and Catholic traditions and pastes
them together to construct the total christian ritual. (Apparently, no
single church has all the pieces.) I was doing research for a screenplay at
the time and had also just read THE WRITERS JOURNEY, which spells out how
"the hero's journey" matches the very structure of drama, so that the
opening of each act represents a series of transcendences on the part of the
main character, the hero. Putting it all together, I noticed that the
complete christian myth, as it was re-constructed by Alan Watts, is a
depiction of the hero's journey. And I should add that Joseph Campbell, who
is recommended by Pirsig in Lila, wrote his doctoral thesis on the hero's
journey. It was published in '49 as THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES and
demonstates how this heroic model is common to all cultures.
I think the dual role is explained pretty easily. Once in a while a
historical person comes along who is remarkable enough to bear some of the
features of this mythic archetype. Maybe it only makes them famous at first.
Then somebody in the literary arts or the theater paints them as grander
than they really are, because they represent some isssues in the subtext or
whatever. More grand features are added, more daring deeds, more wise
pronouncements, maybe even ones borrowed from other myths and before you
know it, you've got yourself a new god.
Thanks,
DMB
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