Hi Jonathan, Roger and Squad
Roger, I'm working on a reply to your "Program: Keith and Horse Models" post
and trying not to rush it this time as I did with my previous post on the MoQ and
Morals. The subject will probably go into next month, but I would imagine that the
list can support this. It's about half done at the moment.
Jonathan, I'm starting to get confused by your exchange with Platt.
PLATT:
> >OK. Now you seem to say that morality is whatever society says it is.
> >Or to put it in rhetorically pejorative terms, morality by mob. ...
>
JONATHAN:
> Damn right! Morality is whatever society or the mob says it is. You can
> put it anyway you like, but the mob will do as it pleases and still call
> it morality.
Yeah! Might is right. An eye for an eye... Is this what you're saying. A mob
doesn't act, it reacts - and generally in the worst possible way. You seem to have
said in some of your posts that society must dominate the intellect - why? Moral
behaviour is not practised by societies it is practiced by individuals. When you
insist that the mob will dictate what is right and what is wrong which mob do you
mean. If two mobs disagree how do you solve the problem. The answer in the
past has been to see which mob has the most left alive when the fight finishes.
How does this tie in with your ideas about caring.
PLATT:
> >Fine. But Pirsig claims the MoQ allows us to deal with morals "on the
> >basis of reason." ....
>
JONATHAN:
> Yes Platt. Take Pirsig's ideas, make a chart, program them into a
> computer and start asking questions ....
>
> and when your new god tells you to sacrifice your own child . . . what's
> going to hold you back Platt?
>
> Is anything going to hold you back?
Well you could start with the rejection of ANY God. Personally I mistrust all of
them. Now if I could just get to meet one or two and have a discussion with
them... I agree with you about caring but this is not practised at a social level -
individuals care. The only thing a society cares about is its continued existence. If
a few bodies are sacrificed along the way - well, there's plenty more where they
came from! Something that seems to have been missing from this argument is
that reason AND compassion are what make good moral values. Either one on its
own willl fail.
> JONATHAN
> I now realise that it is stupid to talk about "morality" from
> anything other than the human perspective. We can't make moral judgements
> about anything other than our own behaviour, because that's the only thing
> we control.
So let me go through this as you have described it above. You walk down the
road and you see two soldiers nailing someone to a wall. They then proceed to
strip his skin from his body. They then pour petrol over him and set him on fire.
Would you still like to tell me that you would make no moral judgement about the
soldiers? Does it make any difference if the man being tortured and murdered is
your father or someone you don't know? A Jew or an Arab? A Catholic or a
Protestant? Black or White.
> JONATHAN:
> Intellect is nothing more than a tool for analysing the likely outcome of
> alternative behaviours.
Each of which has (a) value. Or do you believe that that all outcomes are of equal
value and worth. If this is the case why bother with laws and trials and
punishment. Letting someone go will have as much value as punishing them.
Save the money and don't bother to prosecute in the first place.
> JONATHAN:
> So Platt, your pretend ignorance of human values is dishonest. You
> condemn Marxism for a bit of spilled blood? I've known of blood spilled
> for far less worthy causes! What's wrong with spilling blood?
So who's blood are we talking about here - yours? That of your childrens (now or
in the future)? Your mothers? I can't believe you wrote the above. I thought you
cared.
> JONATHAN:
> Damn it! I should have replied to Platt straight away. I should have
> ranted and raged like Fintan.
Can I join in? Let's all join in and get really angry and scream and shout and get
hysterical, then we can kill each other just to round things off. This is the usual
path travelled from the starting point you suggest. It's been happeneing throughout
history.
WHEN IS IT GOING TO STOP!
Horse
"Making history, it turned out, was quite easy.
It was what got written down.
It was as simple as that!"
Sir Sam Vimes.
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