>At 10:16 AM -0600 12/8/98, glove wrote:
>>Mary, Pirsig uses spiders on LSD in Lila as an analogy of a hallucinogen
>>uncovering a more perfect reality underlying the one we normally perceive
>>of. i would say spiders are a perfect example of a species by-passing the
>>social level and using the intellect directly. why did the US government
>>conduct LSD tests on spiders in the first place?>
>>
>>because baby spiders are not taught to weave webs by adult spiders. they
>>just seem to "know" how to build a web. where does that "knowledge" come
>>from? prior to the LSD experiment the concensus was that the spider, under
>>the influence of a hallucinogenic drug, would be unable to spin a web.
>>however, just the opposite happened. the spiders began spinning webs of
>>abnormal beauty and perfection.
Keith wrote:
>
>I disagree with the characteriziation of the unlearned behavior of spiders
>as intellect. It's important to keep in mind that Pirsig was talking
>metaphorically here about the spider's physical web and his intellectual
>web. The critical difference is that while the spider was manipulating the
>weaving of its web differently because its biological mind was affected by
>the LSD, Pirsig was manipulating his *ideas* differently. It is the
>existence of particular patterns of these ideas that defines intellect. If
>it were not so, I would be committing a crime agains intellect each time I
>stomped on a spider!
Hi Keith!
if you really do stomp spiders then you are indeed committing a crime, in my
opinion, for whatever that is worth. but be that as it may, if the
"unlearned behavior" of spiders does not arise via intellect, it must be
biological. but arent we mixing apples and oranges then?
by biological, i take that to mean life itself. for something to be alive.
is web-building a biological event? i am not a biologist, but Rupert
Sheldrake, who wrote "The Hypothesis of Morphic Resonance; A New Science of
Life" believes that we cannot account for "unlearned behaviour" by any
biological means. there seems to be nowhere that these "patterns" are stored
in the body.
if that is true, how do we account for spiders building webs? there is so
much we do not understand. my only suggestion would be to stop stomping and
start watching the little spiders, and they may teach something of value.
Glove wrote:
>
>>i am unsure what this means in terms of the Metaphysics of Quality, but i
>>would say that the social level, while it contains a great deal of value,
is
>>not absolutely essential for the survival of the species. the intellect
>>level is absolutely essential however, and this only reaffirms the
>>hierachial positions of the levels and places the intellect as the highest
>>moral static quality pattern of value.
Keith wrote:
>
>I agree with your conclusion in terms of the ordering of the levels, but
>not with the reasoning. It must be clearly kept in mind that society is the
>mediating factor in controlling biology. Were we to let our society
>crumble, our species would near extinction. I think society is a powerful
>force for preservation of species, as it by definition keeps the group
>(species) going at the expense, if necessary, of the individual entity.
Keith, i agree entirely. my point is that the intellect must conceive the
society before it comes into existence and therefore is growing from it in
the sense we normally talk of growing, even though the conception in its
entirety is already here BEFORE society arises, in the sense we normally
think of as BEFORE. therefore it is theoretically possible to by-pass the
social level and perceive intellect patterns of value directly rather than
thru the social level.
i would point out that this is precisely what some of our most famous
geniuses in history have done. celebacy and isolation marks so many of their
lives, self-imposed in many cases. why would this be? i dont pretend to
understand any of it but i find it very intriguing nevertheless.
Best wishes to everyone
glove
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