THREE LEVELS OR FOUR? ROGER GIVES UP HIS SHORT LIVED LIFE ON THE WILD SIDE
Below is my best attempt at a summary-to-date of this portion of a fun
thread........
JB ( The Devil that he is) started it all with his bold assertion challenging
the 4 levels and suggesting that it would be cleaner and clearer to go to
three and set intellect to the side.
Tempted by the evil necromancer, I threw out that "I want a cookie’ type
thoughts are clearly not superior to the US Government and its protection of
free speech and justice.
Platt disagreed and asserted that any thought is superior to any
government/societal pattern.
Therefore, I bit into Jonathan’s evil fruit with some serious MOQ heresy of my
own, responding to Platt’s comment with..... "The Social Pattern That Values
Freedom , Truth, and Clarity is Superior to ..... Insanity, and thoughts of
malice, and trivial thoughts."
To resolve this concern, I suggested a combined SOCIO-INTELLECTUAL level that
had varying value directions (This was the key to my mistake). I wrote:
"Primitives valued the Strong. Victorians valued the Holy or the Charismatic.
The Enlightened value the Truth."
MAGNUS responded to my suggestion as follows:
<<<<<<<The cause of the confusion you're expressing is that people, with
intellectual patterns, are parts of a society (a social pattern).
This is not absurd or contradictory in any way. It's perfectly
alright for a society to use people as building blocks because
people are patterns of all levels. It doesn't make society a
higher level than intellect>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mary then wrote what I thot was an awesome post.
MARY: <<<A social pattern valuing freedom, truth, and clarity is
superior to other social patterns because it is an enabler for the
intellectual level.......
All thoughts that were thunk are not necessarily of the same level of Value.
The intellect floats in a sea consisting of all the levels that have come
before it. As such, there are bound to be thoughts that are an expression
of the needs/wants/desires of all the lower levels; biological thoughts,
social thoughts, even inorganic thoughts. The social value of the right to
think freely is a high quality social level value. This value is of high
quality because it allows the intellectual level free riegn to think about
anything. And since the intellectual level is a more advanced level this is
good.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Fintan warned that my heresy may threaten my MOQ CLUB membership. ( I love
your writing man!)
Bo proved Fintan right and threatened me with MOQ kindergarten!
JB then welcomed me to the Dark Side, though I believe both he and Fintan
reasonably question this Capitalist Pig’s allegience to "social" values.
Truth, freedom and clarity are not their espoused top values.
JONATHAN:
<<<<<<Firstly Roger, welcome to the trinity squad. Don't worry about the
self-appointed guardians of MoQ orthodoxy. They have already mauled MoQ
far more than anything you, I or even Fintan have written.>>>>>>>>
Horse then jumped in to argue with JB:
JB: <<< "The Enlightened value the Truth", but our society values something
else.>>>>
HORSE: <<Of course it does. It values its own existence and if that means that
members of society are destroyed or removed for whatever reason then this is
fine for society as a whole. Thus the expression, "The greatest good for the
greatest number".>>>>>>>
JB: <<<But I know what *I* consider right and good. One thing I *know* is that
movements which have *claimed* to place intellect and logic first have
been responsible for some of the most immoral behavior known to man.>>>>>>>>
Clearly I have always sided with Horse on values. My socio-intellectual trial
balloon tried unsuccessfully to mix the two levels while keeping the
distinction in their values. Jonathan makes great points on the intellectual
mistakes. I believe these to be the learning stages of an emerging value
level. With its hierarchical position at the top, its mistakes and successes
are magnified beyond those of its predecessors. Its patterns will learn and
progress as it follows its own values toward truth and clarity. (He has heard
this from me before of course).
Diane then wrote a succinct post summarizing her take on several threads.
DIANE: <<<<....someone said that we're getting confused because
the social and intellectual levels are so deeply intertwined. I think
this is true and it's because of the way the two have evolved molding
and mediating each other as they go. The social level appropriates the
intellectual level for its own purposes....... There are many sets of
intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have more
quality than others, but that we can do so is, in part, the result of
our history and current patterns of values. >>>>>>>>>>>
To conclude, let me add that I have often chided others that the key to the
levels isn’t to study their patterns, it is to concentrate on their values and
the direction that these values take the patterns. Clearly, I failed to take
my own advice.
I now officially recant my heresy and ask for MOQ forgiveness.
DOWN WITH THE EVIL TRINITY !
FOUR LEVELS RULE!
Thanks for the Journey . Love ya all!
Roger
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