hi, ken, you said:
It seems pretty obvious that we are not going to advance our discussion
much until we reach agreement on the definition of Mysticism
lithien:
just open up Lila to p.72 and pirsig defines it for you:
The term mystic is sometimes confused with "occult" or "supernatural" ...but
in philosophy it has a different meaning....They share a common belief that
the fundamental nature of reality is outside language; that language splits
things up into parts while the true nature of reality is undivided.
this is the definition i'm going by. it has nothing to do with spiritualism
nor god. when i was 7 years old, my grandfather who was a research
scientist sat me on his knees and answered very frankly my questions about
the bible, especifically the story of adam and eve that i was being taught
in catholic school. i have never forgotten that. so please don't insist on
defining the mystic side in philosophy with religion.
lithien
http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Clark <clark@netsites.net>
To: moq_discuss@moq.org <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 10:47 PM
Subject: MD Defining Mysticism.
>Donny,
> It seems pretty obvious that we are not going to advance our discussion
>much until we reach agreement on the definition of Mysticism so instead of
>refuting you point by point I am going to give you my understanding of what
>mysticism means.
> I have two fairly good dictionaries here so I will start by giving you
>the two definitions of Mysticism that they give.
> The first is the unabridged Random House Dictionary of the English
>Language which gives the definition:
>
> "The doctrine of an immediate spiritual intuition of truths believed to
>transcend ordinary understanding, or of a direct, intimate union of the
>soul with God through contemplation and love."
>
> The second is the American Heritage dictionary of the English Language
>which gives the definition:
>
>"Any belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual
>apprehension but central to being and directly accessible by intuition."
>
>
>Donny:
> You seem to be making the same mistake as Mary and equating "mystical'
>with 'supernatural'. I wont repeat all of that.
>
>and further: The main point here is still that you insist on making
>philosophy/mysticism a competing opponent to science.
>
>Clark:
> When we read these two definitions we see that mystical is equated with
>supernatural by these two dictionaries.
>
> In your second statement you equate philosophy with mysticism. This is
>not necessarily the case. It is possible to do mystical philosophy but it
>is just an abberration. As commonly understood philosophy is not mysticism.
>
> You go on to equate mysticism with science and then compare the two
>with political theory, literature, visual art. "Does painting contradict
>poetry?. You must know that these are not the same questions at all. We
>are talking about a predictable (science) process as opposed to an
>unpredictable (mysticism) process.
>
>Donny:
>
> I don't think SO thinking = DQ. I don't think DQ can be subsumed within
>SO thinking's Hierarchys
>
>Clark:
>
> I did not say that SO thinking = DQ, I said that I thought that SO
>thinking was not incompatible with DQ. And by the way, with the MOQ.
>
> When I said that the old philosophers were not playing with a full deck I
>meant it as a sort of complement. Think of the conclusions they might have
>reached had they had our (still limited) understanding of the operation of
>the universe.
>
> I agree that science is a means of communication and of proof. Whatever
>counts as proof, and philosophy is fine, must be based on the bedrock of
>our understanding of the way the physical universe works. Mysticism is
>fine if it amuses you but it has no place in our understanding of our place
>in the universe.
> Now give me your understanding of what mysticism means. Ken Clark
>
>
>
>
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