welcome to the mystic camp, malbin. could it be that the reason so many
people have "all of a sudden" joined in is because there is something
accessible to discuss now?
hmmmm....i wonder! maybe fintan and i forced one of those static latches to
move just a tad!!!
i love it!
Lithien
http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Malbin Mendoza <mmendoza@dickey-john.com>
To: moq_discuss@moq.org <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: MD mysticism
>Hello to ALL, my name is Malbin,
>
> Another new member here. I subscribe to the philosophical model of what
>you might call Wilber-Pirsig-Zen Buddhism. I think D. Buchanan is right on
>the money.
> I read a lot of interesting stuff about DQ, mysticism, Zen, brain,
mind,
>life, consciousness, etc, on this site. But one thing is strangely silent.
>It could be because Pirsig has not made much about, but he definitely did
>it. And this thing is PRACTICE. SPIRITUAL TRAINING. Without this, without
>practice, all this talk, philosophizing, is a big waste of time. Its just
>more attachment, namely to static intellectual patterns. Pirsigs practice
>was the koan: 'What's Quality?" For years he practiced with this koan,
until
>that night, after sitting in his bedroom for 3 days, after detaching
himself
>even from the consciousness of himself (mind and body dropped), Quality
>revealed itself to him. That's what its all about. Everything else, every
>static pattern, is in an evolutionary, developmental drive towards that
end,
>that goal: Enlightenment.
> So yes, let us discuss, clarify, engage ourselves in intellectual
>matters, that helps see them for what they are, models, static models of
>reality, not reality itself, not Dynamic Quality. So don't forget about
>practice, whether it be meditation, or contemplation, or yoga, because it
>accelerates the evolutionary currents, it galvanizes you to the luminosity
>of the Dynamic Ground and Goal, to the Spirit-Itself, to Radical Emptiness,
>to God, to Dynamic Quality Itself.
>
>David Buchanan wrote:
>
>> Calling all Pirsigers:
>>
>> Forgive me for not addressing you by name, but I'm new and haven't yet
>> sorted out your "voices". The conversations about the Zomie articles are
>> lost on me and the discussion of the number of levels seems a terrible
>> mess. Most fascinating to me is the debate on mysticism. Clearly there
>> are two distict camps on the issue.
>>
>> As I said in my other post, I think the MOQ and mysticism agree so
>> profoundly that one essential describes the other. In fact I'm a little
>> surprized there are two camps. Would love to split hairs with the
>> moq/mystics when the civil war is over. For now the challege appears to
>> be in convincing the other camp. I'll call them the rationalists. I
>> think its reasonable, accurate and fair.
>>
>> Seems the rationalists intentionaly persist in maintaining the
>> misconception that mysticism is unscientific, anti-scientific and
>> irrational. Meanwhile the mystics repeat their denials without much
>> explaination. And to be fair, it is extremely though to articulate. Its
>> part of the meaning of the word. I'm worried about my attempt to
>> convince you rationalist with mere words, especially in front of the
>> other mystics.
>>
>> Let me start by pointing out that both camps really agree about science.
>> I might be more critical and see greater limitations than the
>> rationalists, but we both find alot of value in it. I assume there are
>> no creationists or flat-earthers here at moq_discuss. I'm guessing
>> everyone here is free of superstition, mental illness, furbey fever, and
>> other forms of irrationality.
>>
>> Sir Issac Newton was a mystic in his latter years. Einstien viewed
>> physics as a way to understand the mind of God. John Travolta is a
>> scientologist. You decide.
>>
>> And maybe the reason for their persistence is based on the false belief
>> that there are two choices; rational and irrational. If there were only
>> two I'd be in the rationalist camp. BUT mysticism isn't irrational.
>> MYSTICISM IS POST-RATIONAL.
>>
>> One arrives at mysticism in a flash of insight, they say, but the secret
>> is that it usually happens only after years of training. The flash of
>> insight isn't some gift from the heaven in answer to all those prayers,
>> its more like the flowering of a cultivatred mind. Its as if all the
>> experiences finally click together into one simple thing. All the
>> gazillion pieces of the puzzle come together and you realize you always
>> knew, but now theres a new appreciation.
>>
>> Mystical visions can happen other ways too, trauma and lsd for example,
>> but those experiences are often wasted on the unprepared. Again, those
>> experiences and the insights they produce are nearly impossible to
>> translate. Its part of the reason so many mystics were poets, artists,
>> and scientists - they need a medium of expression and discovery that is
>> better than words. Their insights are recorded in lots of ways, in every
>> culture. But its disguised in a way. But once you notice, its
>> everywhere. Check out the poet William Blake or the lyrics of Van
>> Morrison and U2.
>>
>> Did you read Pirsig's speech "Subjects,, Ojects, Data and Values"?
>> There you have the author of MOQ discussing the most crucial scientific
>> issues of our day and as a mystic I was thrilled. The descriptions of
>> reality the mystics gave us in poetic forms are being verified in the
>> hard sciences. It's only in this century, when physics got good enough
>> to study sub-atomic particles and the very edges of the universe, that
>> the mystical insights about the nature of reality could be verified. The
>> mystics also had insights into "psychology" long before Freud was born.
>>
>> And what long-held mystical view of reality is being verified by
>> science? I think Emerson said it best, "Nature is Mind, precipitated".
>> In other words, "Reality is composed of consciouness manifesting itself
>> in the forms we see". Or Pirsig might say, "The universe is made up of
>> different kinds and levels of Quality".
>>
>> Remember rationalists - both camps value science and neither is
>> irrational, but we mystics are post rational. You can bang on the table
>> all you want, but the mytics and the physicists know its apparent
>> solidity is only an illusion.
>>
>> Nature is mind. The universe is consciousness. That's the heart of the
>> mystical view of reality. Awareness of some kind exists all the way down
>> to the sub-atomic level and have certain very limited "choices" about
>> what they're gonna do. Be a particle or a wave in the case of a photon?
>> Decay or not in the case of a uranium atom. Bond with that other complex
>> molecule? Absorb the nutrients from that other cell? Move toward the
>> light? Eat that steak? As the forms evolve toward greater complexity the
>> have more freedom and more awareness. Finally a point is reached where
>> consicouness has grown acute enough to know that the very ground of
>> being is consciouness. The individual consciousness identifies with the
>> universal consciouness and percieves that there is no seperation from
>> it. There is really only one thing; consciousness. Being at one with the
>> universe, they say with an Indian accent. Or in Christian terms,
>> at-one-ment or "I and the father are one". The mystical philosophers
>> talk about in different terms, but its the same view.
>>
>> Dear rationlists, it would be unscientific madness for you to dismiss
>> the ancient and vast body of evidence in favor of myticism!
>>
>> David B.
>>
>> homepage - http://www.moq.org
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>
>
>
>--
>Malbin Mendoza
>Mechanical Design Engineer
>
>PH: 217/438-2256
>FAX: 217/438-6157
>
>
>
>
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