Fri, 17 Dec 1999 Kilian Betlach wrote:
> Howdy all:
> As the battle rages concerning what mysticism is along with its general
> validity, I find myself overwhelmed with the feeling that can only be
> described as: "so what?" I may be extremely thick-headed, but I don't
> understand what all the fuss is about.
Hi Kilian and Group. A warm welcome to all newcomers!
No, you are the least thick-headed person around, but it has eluded
a lot of people that "mysticism" is the legitimate child of
subject-object metaphysics. They believe they "reject" dualism or
whatever they call it by embracing new-age-like standpoints, but in
doing so they CEMENT it. And what is worse: they believe that the MOQ
is a new-age movement.
> I think it would be a very difficult task indeed to find a group of
> people (even the proverbial hard-nose scientist) who did not beleive
> that there was a realm of existence that is beyond and independent of
> the ability of "thought" to conceive, explain, or visualize it. The
> simple fact that so many people believe in a some form of God/Higher
> being testifies to this. And let's not get bogged down with particulars
> and the splitting of hairs -- mysticsm is a lot like the Quality
> described in ZAMM in that we all no what it is, we just get caught when
> we try to specifically tie it down with a definition.
Exactly.
> And yet, mysticism isn't the whole thing. Anyone who affirms this
> either wasn't paying attention to Pirsig's basic split of Quality in
> LILA or finds it invalid. Fully half of reality is DQ -- the mystical
> side of reality, the realm of inspiration, change, etc. The other half,
> and no less important is SQ -- the side of physical reality, stability,
> etc. Obviously, both are needed. They are two halves of the same
> reality-coin.
Yes, from day one I have said that everything is mind (mysticism) or
nothing is. We may declare existence to be the mystic ocean that
carries it all, we aught to know that - always - but we are
discussing the surface waves. The MOQ is a dualism too, I
think we fool ourselves by inventing mollifying formulations to deny
it. The waves are water too, but the form is different. This dualism
is supported by experience and experiments.
> Having said that, I will cautiously contend that to approach this forum
> on a purely mystical basis has potentially less value than to do so in a
> rational, logical manner. This has to do with the "sharability" of a
> mystical contention. It being something so personal and germane to the
> individual, I feel that attempts to express it without adhering to the
> confines of logic and language would be to give nothing to the squad as
> a whole. Indeed, a tue mystic would say that such an event is doomed to
> failure, because as soon as you use the static latch of language
> whatever you're attempting to describe has been perverted.
> So could we maybe go back to discussing this month's PROGRAM which IMHO
> is the msot important one that has come about since I've been a member
> of the squad? A mystic aspect of reality exists, who's really argue
> against that without saying that the concept of Quality is not valid?
> But who else would really contend that rational thought and logical
> expression are of no value within a discussion group that exists within
> language? What are you guys really arguing about? And why?
Right you are!
(From another message of yours):
> I think I agree with Bodvar's thinking (I forget the acronym and
> would also like to hear more about it) in that I think S-O thinking
> equals logic (Please forgive me B. if I'm butchering your theory)
> and that this is the means in which the intellectual functions.
> Thoughts that utilize this process and focus on things like the MoQ
> for example, would seem to exist on the intellectual level.
Good! It's the SOLAQI (subject-object logic as Q-intellect) Yes. IMHO
it ends all the fuss about seeing Q-intellect as "mind" which screws
up the whole MOQ. In continuation of my wave metaphor it becomes the
highest wave crest from where we see the other patterns being
different from each other ....and even different from the ocean.
Bodvar
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