hi, jonathan, i couldnt resist to respond to this observation of yours:
I would suggest that time itself is a pattern perceived by Man.
lithien:
i agree with you completely. time may appear linear in our limited
experience but it may not pass at all at the still point.
did you watch Contact? i thought that movie made a lot of sense. when
matter is no longer an obstacle time is distorted and so is space. so our
perception of time may be quite an illusion.
Lithien
~*~all paths lead to the inevitable conclusion that logic fails
miserably when confronted with the mystery of existence~*~
http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan B. Marder <marder@agri.huji.ac.il>
To: Lila Squad <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: MD Social values
>Hi Lilacs,
>
>I know this is irrational, but when I read what Magnus wrote, I
>considered withdrawing from any further discussion with him. All my
>thoughts are clouded by this:-
>
>MAGNUS
>>> >Homo sapiens killed the other race (the Neanderthals)
>>> >because they could, and it was moral....
>
>JONATHAN
>>> By this logic, the Holocaust was moral! Sorry Magnus, I reject that
>>> outright.
>>
>
>MAGNUS
>>Hold your horses! Who said the Jewish people was another race?
>
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>What difference does it make? What's going on with you Magnus!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>>Not quite, DQ may cause immoral events. But since the alternative
>>is a static and degenerate world, it's more moral with DQ than
>>without. I'd say the Holocaust was such an event.
>
>Phew. Finally I see that Magnus does recognise that the Holocaust was
>immoral. I'm still worried though - I think we should change the world
>so that another Holocaust is impossible.
>Magnus appears to disagree.
>
>Now that's off my chest, let me continue...
>
>>> A question to Magnus. Is there any type of thought that is not
>IntPoV?
>>
>
>MAGNUS
>>I don't think so. I said that all thoughts are IntPoVs, I didn't say
>>that all IntPoVs are thoughts.
>>
>
>Please explain what other IntPoVs there are. Do you mean meditation
>etc.?
>
>JONATHAN
>>> I put human morality where it always was. MAN IS THE MEASURE.
>>> That's the whole Quality idea. The "codes" are a product of morality,
>>> not the other way round.
>>
>>I disagree. That's not the Quality idea. Morality, reality and Quality
>>were around long before man entered the stage, and will be around long
>>after we're gone.
>
>We never did have that monthly topic about time.
>I would suggest that time itself is a pattern perceived by Man.
>In this context, Magnus's statement doesn't mean much.
>
>JONATHAN
>>> "Rigel morality" puts codes first. Rigel condemns Pirsig for
>>> violating a code.
>>
>>But those codes have nothing to do with reality.
>>
>
>Magnus, I think we have very different ideas of what constitutes
>reality.
>Those codes are perfectly real. "Real" is one of the most misused words
>in the English language, and frequently confused for "true". When my son
>asked if the story I told him was "real" (his word), I said YES. All
>stories are REAL and all codes are REAL and any mathematical equation I
>care to write is REAL.
>
>But they are not all good, and some are inconsistent with other patterns
>we value (i.e. FALSE).
>Science confuses "real" and "true".
>
>I have some more comments related to this, but they fit the "mysticism"
>thread more, so I'll continue in a separate post.
>
>
>Regards to all,
>Jonathan
>
>
>
>
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>
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