Hi All
On 12 Jan 99, at 1:52, Glen Dickey wrote:
> Rules without a rational are annoying at best. If the group is going to willing
> submit to some form of regulation, then it seems to follow that the group should
> benefit in some way from doing so. Could some kind soul please enlighten me as
> to what exactly we expect to gain from these rules?
On 12 Jan 99, at 6:17, Lithien wrote:
> yes, Glenn. we must have a rational for these rules and an explanation on
> how to go about not breaking them.
A rationale for the Rules (and presumably the Charter) of MOQ_DISCUSS has been
requested and which I shall now provide along with a point by point explanation and
justification of the Charter and Rules. Finally, I shall provide an updated version of the
Charter and Rules.
RATIONALE:
The reason why the Charter and Rules have been issued is to encourage members of
MOQ_DISCUSS to focus on the reason for the existence of this list and the site from
which it originates.
The MOQ is in it's infancy at present and like any infant needs to be nurtured or it may
not survive. This does not mean that it should not be criticized or treated with kid
gloves because it is frail or inadequate - it is not. What it does mean is that it needs to
be examined and expanded into a coherent system that can supercede current
systems which also purport to explain the foundations of reality.
In order to do this a framework is necessary within which members can express
themselves without having to deal with excessive extraneous material, abuse etc. I
have attempted to provide this framework with the Charter and Rules. My initial
attempts were somewhat inept and were criticized by some members. I have accepted
many of the criticisms and revised the Charter and Rules to take some of that criticism
into account.
What we are now left with is, I believe, a reasonable system which allows members of
MOQ_DISCUSS to explore the MOQ without unfairly limiting or compromising their
means of expression and allowing a broad scope for raising issues and problems that
relate to the MOQ.
By focussing primarily on the issues raised in Pirsigs work and requesting that
members treat each other with respect and apply care and attention to the quality of
their posts all members of the list benefit. Over the last couple of weeks this has, in
general, been the case.The majority of members have observed the rules and the
result has been a noticeable increase in the overall quality of discussion. There is still
room for improvement though and I would hope that all members realize this and
continue to aim for the highest quality possible.
Finally, before I proceed with an explanation of the various points of the Charter and
Rules I should point out that it is up to all of the members of the list to enforce the
Charter and Rules. I have no intention of spending my time performing a task which is
the collective responsibility of all members. If you want a mailing list that provides a
flexible and worthwhile platform for something that obviously means a lot to most of
you then treat it with respect. As more members join the list and more posts start to
flow the Charter and Rules will be your main means of providing order for a difficult and,
at times, confusing subject.
Below is an explanation/justification/rationaliztion of the MOQ_DISCUSS Charter and
Rules.
*************************************************************************
> MOQ_DISCUSS CHARTER
> The MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list exists to provide a general and free-ranging
> forum for the discussion of Robert M. Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality.
Self explanatory. It is one of the objectives of the MOQ site to provide discussion
forums relating to Pirsig's work. MOQ_DISCUSS has a broad scope for that purpose.
> The MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list is an unmoderated mailing list.
> Members should observe the Rules of the list in order that discussions can
> be conducted in in a civilized and reasonably courteous manner. Members
> are encouraged to become involved in dialogue and debate but are requested
> to refrain from flaming and abusive behaviour of all kinds.
As MOQ_DISCUSS stands there is no mechanism in place to moderate posts or
enforce the rules of the list. Additionally, any person can subscribe to the list without
the need for approval by an administrator or adjudicator. A number of rules have been
formulated in order to provide a structure within which members can discuss RMP's
work without threat of abuse and/or ridicule and free of the usual practices experienced
by many in the newsgroups. This includes, but is not limited to spamming, flaming and
introduction of non-RMP related discussions. Other rules cover the limiting of
redundant material and other means of reducing bandwidth, download time and storage.
> Members of MOQ_DISCUSS are free to initiate a new discussion or topic by
> posting a message announcing the new topic or with a Subject line
> identifying the new topic.
Ease of introduction of a subject of interest to a member or group of members has
been provided in order that no-one should be restricted in starting a discussion which
is felt to be of interest. No other member is obliged to join in a suggested discussion
or should be compelled to do so by whatever means. The only restriction that may be
applied is that the subject is related to some aspect of RMP's work.
> Members of MOQ_DISCUSS are not required to participate. Members can be
> active, temporarily inactive or permanent lurkers.
No member of MOQ_DISCUSS will be compelled to join in any discussion. If they feel
that they wish to do so then that's their choice. If not the that is equally as reasonable.
> If it becomes necessary to remove a member from the MOQ_DISCUSS list for
> persistent disregard for the rules then this will only be carried out
> after reminders and warnings have been issued and reasons given. This will
> hopefully be an extremely rare occurrence.
The above is reserved for extreme cases of abuse and disregard for the rules and
where all other means of persuasion have failed. This will be difficult to enforce due to
the open nature of the MOQ_DISCUSS list. It is hoped that members of the list will
participate in ensuring the the Charter and Rules are observed as this is the most
effective means of applying pressure to unreasonable and/or selfish members who
show no regard or respect for the rights of other members to use and enjoy this forum.
> The Charter and Rules of MOQ_DISCUSS are subject to addition or
> modification under the guidance of the list administrator. Any additions
> or modifications will be posted to the list with reasons given.
The above is not a licence for the administrator of the list to arbitrarily add or modify
rules at will, once the Charter and Rules have been established. Addition or
modification will only be performed after the members have been consulted and some
form of concensus has been reached - how that concensus is reached has not yet
been determined and will need to be discussed by the members of the list.
> MOQ_DISCUSS RULES
> 1) As a minimum requirement for joining the MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list
> members must have read Lila by Robert M. Pirsig.
I did originally consider the minimum requirement to include ZATAOMM, as was
suggested by at least one other member of the list, but as Lila is essentially the
handbook of the MOQ I thought it sufficient to be limited to Lila. It is necessary for this
to be the minimum requirement as no detailed FAQ exists for Lila or the MOQ and
having to endlessly explain the basics of the MOQ is pointless when Lila is available at
most decent bookstores and libraries.
> 2) All topics and discussions must be relevant to the Metaphysics of
> Quality in general or some particular aspect of Zen and the Art of
> Motorcycle Maintenance or Lila.
As the name of this list is moq_discuss and the site from which the list originates is
moq.org, it is not unreasonable that discussions on the list relate to the MOQ. The
scope of discussions has been increased to include all other works by RMP as they
are relevant to the formation and expansion of the MOQ and the ideas proposed in Lila.
There are literally thousands of mailing lists and newsgroups in existence which cater
for other subjects, but this list is purely for ideas and discussion related to the MOQ. If
anyone feels that they have been misled as to the subject under discussion then I
would be interested to know how.
> 3) Each member should post no more than one message per topic/discussion
> per day.
The above has caused an amount of disagreement on the list. It was initially
introduced for a number of reasons. Several members complained openly (and some
others privately) that the amount of mail they received from the list was making it
extremely difficult to follow discussions. Additionally, if a member was on holiday or
away for just a few days, the amount of mail downloaded on return virtually precluded
them from picking up the thread of many discussions. A knock on effect of an overload
of mail combined with the inclusion of complete posts (see comments on Rule 4
below) caused a number of members mailboxes to be filled, resulting in other non-
moq_discuss mail being discarded by ISP's and mailhosts.
I agree with the comments from some members that this rule could cause an
interruption in the flow of some discussions and needs to be replaced with something
that allows members to engage in those discussions but also to balance problems
caused by an 'excess' of postings. If the other rules on the list are observed then it is
unlikely that this rule would be necessary. I would suggest a compromise that a
maximum number of post per day be agreed. These could be all on one subject or
spread between a number of subjects. My personal view is that 4 posts per day should
be sufficient for the majority of members but if others feel that this is insufficient then
please make a suggestion, along with reasons as to your view. Please also bear in
mind the above comments.
> 4) Members should reproduce only the relevant parts of any previous
> message to which they are responding.
As several members have suggested, the editing of previous posts and messages so
that your own post is coherent and easy to follow indicates a commitment to care in
what you want to say and how you say it. This should be sufficient reason on its own.
However, as I have commented above, removal of all but the relevant parts of previous
posts reduces the size of a post along with the bandwidth required, the storage space
necessary and the time required for many to download mail.
> 5) Contributors should reproduce the Subject line of the thread/discussion
> to which they are replying. The MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list archive at:
> http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ has the option to group
> posts by Subject. Reproducing the subject line makes it easier to find and
> follow archived posts by Subject.
I've pretty much explained the reason for this in the rule which is why I shall take it out
for the final version. It seems pretty obvious that if there is an archive then it is
important that the means of retrieval of posts - i.e. reading the subject line - is made
as easy as possible until such time as we get a new search engine operational.
> 6) Where possible, posts should be restricted to plain text - no html,
> rich text etc. as there are still a number of mail tools in use that will
> not recognize these formats.
Again, the reason is in the the rule and will be removed. In addition to the reason given,
when a reply is made to an HTML or RTF post some of the formatting text will appear
in the reply unless the reply is made in HTML or RTF etc. This leads to extraneous
characters and general garbage appearing in the posts.
> 7) Posts may not contain attachments, gifs or other documents except by
> arrangement with the list administrator. MOQ_DISCUSS should not be used as
> a file transfer or document exchange service. Use FTP or the Web (put your
> file/document on the Web and mail the list its URL).
More often than not there are problems when attachments are included with posts.
They often exceed the size limit for posts and unnecessarily take up bandwidth. Free
web sites are so easy to find these days that there should be little problem with
placing gifs, charts and other documents so that they can be referenced by URL and
those that are interested or have the time can choose whether they view the item.
> 8) Members should refrain from swearing, using offensive language and
> personal attacks on other members. Abuse, in any form, will not be
> tolerated.
I would have thought that the above would be considered as a reasonable request. As
Glen pointed out, my ears are not going to bleed if someone uses one of the seven
words not allowed on the radio (I presume that's U.S. radio) as I use everyone of them
myself. However, most people do object to being sworn _AT_ for proposing an idea or
objecting to anothers idea's. Similarly, I see no reason why personal attacks on other
members, racism, sexism and general bigotry should be tolerated on this or any other
list.
*****************************************************************
The following is the proposed final version of the Charter and Rules of the list.
MOQ_DISCUSS CHARTER
The MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list exists to provide a general and free-ranging
forum for the discussion of Robert M. Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality.
The MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list is an unmoderated mailing list.
Members should observe the Rules of the list in order that discussions can
be conducted in in a civilized and reasonably courteous manner. Members
are encouraged to become involved in dialogue and debate but are requested
to refrain from flaming and abusive behaviour of all kinds.
Members of MOQ_DISCUSS are free to initiate a new discussion or topic by
posting a message announcing the new topic or with a Subject line
identifying the new topic.
Members of MOQ_DISCUSS are not required to participate. Members can be
active, temporarily inactive or permanent lurkers.
If it becomes necessary to remove a member from the MOQ_DISCUSS list for
persistent disregard for the rules then this will only be carried out
after reminders and warnings have been issued and reasons given. This will
hopefully be an extremely rare occurrence.
The Charter and Rules of MOQ_DISCUSS are subject to addition or
modification under the guidance of the list administrator. Any additions
or modifications will be posted to the list with reasons given.
MOQ_DISCUSS RULES
1) As a minimum requirement for joining the MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list
members must have read Lila by Robert M. Pirsig.
2) All topics and discussions must be relevant to the Metaphysics of
Quality in general or some particular aspect of Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance or Lila.
3) Each member should limit the number of post they submit to a maximum of 4 per
day.
4) Members should reproduce only the relevant parts of any previous
message to which they are responding.
5) Contributors should reproduce the Subject line of the thread/discussion
to which they are replying.
6) Where possible, posts should be restricted to plain text - no html,
rich text or other formats should be used.
7) Posts may not contain attachments, gifs or other documents except by
arrangement with the list administrator. MOQ_DISCUSS should not be used as
a file transfer or document exchange service. Use FTP or the Web (put your
file/document on the Web and mail the list its URL).
8) Members should refrain from swearing, using offensive language and
personal attacks on other members. Abuse, in any form, will not be
tolerated.
MOQ Homepage - http://www.moq.org
Mailing List Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
Unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with
UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in the body of the email
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:50 BST