Hi, Ken and MOQers.
Ken wrote:
> Believing that the MoQ is humancentric is the reason that you are unable
> to reconcile the MoQ with humanity.
I have little problem reconciling the MoQ with humanity. The MoQ
describes humanity's place in the universe to my satisfaction. As
presented, sentient beings are the culmination of evolution toward DQ to
this point. As the only sentient beings I am aware of are human, that
pretty much leaves us.
> Man is not the measure any more than
> the amoeba or any inorganic molecule is. Man is the result of Quality
> operating in the universe just as is the amoeba or the molecule.
Agreed, to a point. I see no reason to believe that man is specially
created.
> The fact that evolution developed to the level of sentience in no way changes the
> thrust of evolution in the universe any more than the evolution of life
> changed the thrust of inorganic evolution. We cannot say for sure that the
> intellectual level is reserved to sentient (human) beings because we do not
> know where evolution is taking us. We may be joined by other biological
> species in due course. We are just the first.
Again, I've never stated that (human) sentient beings are the only
possibility for the intellectual level. I think you misunderstand me.
> Pirsig took great pains to show us that the MoQ operated fairly and
> impartially right from the Big Bang until now and on into the future. Why
> do we keep trying to make it otherwise? Ken
>
Operating fairly and impartially implies that Q is a sentient force
directing
evolution. <G> But, seriously, I made a poor choice of words. Perhaps if
I restate it thus:
If you believe that evolution values a rock over a human, then where is
the DQ in evolving a human at all? The MoQ specifically says that
biological pov's are more moral than inorganic pov's, doesn't it?
> Clark writes:
> I do not agree with your statement that "In a deterministic universe
> there is no choice but to follow the dictates of morality". The increase in
> complexity that occurs as evolution advances effectively confers free will
> in a deterministic universe. In the physical universe all possible choices
> are tried and only those which exhibit further possibilities are followed.
> I maintain that by the time evolution produces life that there is
> effectively free will in the deterministic universe because of increasing
> complexity. I would rather say that free will is simply the freedom to
> pursue all possibilities and that is what humanity is doing in spite of
> being part of a deterministic universe.
I am going to have to defer to you on this one. I am no physicist.
Complexity is too complex for me at this point. I'll try to bone up on
the basics, although to be
honest I thought the Cartoon Guide to Physics by Gonick and Huffman was
pretty
challenging stuff <G>
> I also have trouble with your use of terms like "morality" without
> defining what is meant. Morality in human terms is not the same as physical
> morality. The physical morality of the rock or the amoeba or the human has
> the same basis whereas humancentric morality offers the possibility of
> being completely separate and at odds with physical morality.
Mark and I pursued this elsewhere in this thread. If you followed the
conversation, I would sure appreciate your take on where we ended up.
There is certainly nothing here that I specifically disagree with.
I approached this thread in the beginning with an eye toward defining
the moral laws of the intellectual level over the social. (Naturally, it
didn't quite go as I planned.) The MoQ may describe the workings of the
universe sans sentience very well, but it is an intellectual level
construct nevertheless.
Maybe I'm missing something, but there is no way under the rules of the
MoQ that the biosphere can take moral precedence over humans. As I said,
though, we neglect our responsibility to properly husband the resources
of this planet at humanity's peril.
It's late. I started this after coming home from our game tonight and
I'm a lot tired. I'll check in tomorrow and clean up if necessary.
Goodnite all!
drose
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