David and squad,
David says:
The debate on the bombing of Japan was equally daft. One doesn't even
need the MOQ to see that the indiscriminate destruction of an entire
civilian population is immoral. Its against international law and
represents a return to barbarism. Japan was all but finished by then. It
was just a matter of time. We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese
men, women and children for the sake of intimidating Uncle Joe. HE was
looking East after Germany was finally broken and probably would have
invaded Japan if not for the nukes. So its not just a matter of the
number of lives saved or destroyed so much as an attack on innocent
non-combatants. Clearly Hilter and Stalin had no qualms about killing
civilians and engaging in "total war", but they were both twisted
monsters, no? We stooped to their level at Dresden and Hiroshima. Its
kind of ironic that this forum is dedicated to the discussion of a
deeply moral philosophy should attract people who can justify such mass
murder. All I can do is hope such a mind never has the authority to act
on such child-like thinking.
Please forgive me for "scolding" you in such an arrogant manner, but I
was very disappointed and disgusted, downright angry in fact, to read
such views here. Someone PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one outraged by
the stupidity!
Its only because I care about my fellow philosophers. Honest.
Clark says:
I am pleased that the above paragraph springs from a deep caring about
your fellow philosophers. It is with a deep caring about the lessons of
history that I have to tell you that you are full of it.
I know that if you had asked anyone in the US or England or Sydney or the
Elephant and Castle in Eyke or France or just about any other combatant
country that you
would have found very few who would admit to being an innocent,
disinterested bystander. The whole world was involved in the war, including
the non-combatants. I did not have a chance to ask the citizens of Japan or
Germany about their views but I think you would have gotten a similar
answer. Do you think that if our side had had the capability of launching
buzz bombs, as did Germany, that we would not have done it? No one in that
war was an innocent civilian. Producing material for the war was just as
necessary as using it and most people were involved one way or the other.
Early in the war we had prisoners taken in the Phillipines and we also
had the results of the Japanese invasion of China as well as Most of New
Guinea and various islands in the South Pacific. We knew that the Japanese
had not heard of Pirsig. In addition I imagine the Australians were not too
happy looking down the barrel of a Japanese gun.
As I said, after the retaking of the Phillipines we were faced with the
prospect of invading Japan. It is true that their fleet had been badly
damaged but their ground capability was not in bad shape. They could, and
would, have put up a fierce fight. The "experts" had some horrendous
figures on the number of casualties that would result from an invasion and
no one had any reason to disbelieve them.
This was not on my mind at the time but, as you said, in retrospect it
would not have been wise to allow enough time for the Russians to enter the
fray. Can you imagine what the scenario would have been if Russia had
gained a firm foothold in Japan and probably China. It was probably
fortunate for the world that since the time for the atomic bomb had come
that we were the first ones to deploy it. I imagine it kept the wolves at
bay and gave us a freer hand in Japan. Also, can you imagine what the state
of the world would be now if the Russians were the only ones to have the
atomic bomb? We at least have overwhelming force at hand to keep the
hotheads cooled off.
I don't know what kind of revisionist history you have been reading but
if you think that Japan was on the brink of capitulation you are way off
base. An invasion of Japan would have been the bloodiest and toughest of
the war with no doubt many more thousands of both military and civilians
killed in Japan as well as horrendus losses among our military.
If you think that the decision to drop the bomb was taken on the basis of
keeping the Russians out of the Pacific war then you are even more
misinformed than I originally thought. It was taken with the thought of
keeping the casualty figures down to a minimum and that is just what it
did. The fact that it kept ours down to practically zero was a plus. Try to
imagine yourself as the General of the armies in that situation.
On another tack, I have been reading your recent posts and I find:
think Mary is quite correct to say that Pirsig was only refering the
higher levels in saying that only living beings can respond to DQ. That
is to say, only living beings can respond to DQ AT THE HIGHER LEVELS.
The quotes Roger provided have Pirsig saying that subatomic forces
"select" certain options. That is how static patterns respond to DQ AT
THE INORGANIC LEVEL. This celection process, I think, implies that the
entire universe is "alive" and "intelligent" even at the lowest level.
Further, I think that admiting that even inorganic patterns "experience"
DQ in their own way saves the whole MOQ from any kind of Solipsism.
And:
There has been a question as to how we can originate out of DQ and at
the same time the thrust of all evolution is a return to DQ. But if one
imagines the MOQ as the playful dance between DQ and SQ, I think that
question becomes meaningless. It is not so much about the beginning and
the end so much as a constant back and forth, a dialogue of creation and
sacrifice.
Clark says:
Looks like you are getting there. Read back through the posts for two or
three months and you will get more information along these lines. To my
mind it would be more clear if you would drop the mysticism. It is not
necessary. Pirsig's MoQ is very clear and meaningful without it and it just
clouds the issue. With great philosophical respect. Ken
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