SUPER ROG DOES THE INCREDIBLE AND
RESPONDS TO 10 POSTS IN ONE
Below is commentary on Avid's various posts on John's Organismic MOQ. The
new comments are labeled "NEW ROG", all else is cut and pasted.
ROGER:
The direct experience is DQ. And the experience creates the organism and the
environment, not the other way around.
Avid:
DQ doesn't create as well. It is the most direct way to come across quality,
mainly by surprise. Organisms are created by mutations, lucky guesses of the
biological orders, and are tested [their quality] by the situation, in
deleting the bad solutions. In any other level the action may be similar but
the agent is different and the code is different too [so is the judgment of
value of the effort], and it is done by the situation.
NEW ROG:
What does create then? I see evolution and creation as the process of sq
latching from DQ. The advancement in complexity within the universe can be
explained as the process of Quality.
As for your 'surprise' comment, I don't know how to take it. You are not
referencing DQ as 'surprise' are you? Are you saying that surprise is the
experience of recognizing DQ and seeing through our veils (spq's)?
JOHN:
"Dynamic quality is the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality." "Static
quality ... always contains a component of memory." Pirsig saw this division
into dynamic and static as fundamental to his metaphysics, yet it lacks
clarity. In this polarity he seems to be addressing the question of how
dynamic experiences of quality are preserved or integrated into the ongoing
lives of organisms.
ROGER:
I agree with this last statement.
Avid:
I don't. Again John treats it as if there are Organisms [on the Biological
level]
that own the SQ.
Big mistake. Whatever you call Organism is in my eyes [and in RMP eyes too]
a Biological SPQ, meaning it is also a static pattern of quality in its
entity. So how the transition is made DQ >SPQ is not of the organism but in
any possible level, including the organism itself.
I agree however that memory is a wrong choice of a word, because it suggests
an owner. Code, or [theoretical code] could be a better one [even this is a
value statement].
NEW ROG:
What? I have no idea what you mean by your middle paragraph. Not a clue.
Help please!
ROGER:
Again, DE is DQ. It is always dynamic. We have learned to filter and veil
experience. To pattern it and use this trick to run on autopilot. This is
basically a very effective and successful process. However, we can tend to
overdo it. We begin to live in our patterns and filter out the greater
World of experience.
The song has already been experienced, so we don't need or want to attend to
it any more. But as you mention, if you really listen, there is much
Dynamic experience still to be discovered. Pirsig values sq, but always
reminds us
to go back to the source and to constantly seek new, superior experiences
And patterns.
Avid:
Here we differ. IMO we are used to see the song as the same [in different
experiences], because of SOM. Here we have no direct experience to quality
but access to quality via a song, and IT HAS TO BE EXPERIENCED, the SPQ
tells us how [audience code].
NEW ROG:
Okay, I agree so far.
AVID:
As Gestalt creatures, we recognize SPQ and try to match between the
experienced quality and various SPQ options. Only by default we land on DQ,
trying to form a new SPQ with its remains. It is not a matter of veiling, it
is a matter of recognition time, accessing the necessary code is vital for
biological [and higher] survival. If we gaze in the beauty of the Atomic
mushroom, it is too late.
NEW ROG:
DQ is the default of sq? DQ is not something we land on, IMO it is the
stimulus which causes us to land. DQ is pure, preconceptualized experience.
It is Whitehead's 'dim apprehension'. It is James' 'primal stuff'. Sq is our
conceptual patterning of reality. It is Pirsig's 'boxcars ' and his four
levels of patterns.
As for atomic mushrooms, this reminds me of a cartoon. It was a drawing of a
man walking out of the market with a bag of groceries and looking out over
the skyline of the city and seeing it decimated in a huge nuclear mushroom
cloud. The caption of the cartoon had the man saying..... "That's what I
forgot to buy -- mushrooms!"
ROGER:
You confuse the pure DQ of an infant with the much broader range of
experience of a mystic. The difference is in depth and breadth of
consciousness.
Avid:
Again this proves that DQ is a default choice. An infant is not familiar
with lots of SPQ, so he arrives to DQ far more quickly then an old
experienced magician.
NEW ROG:
I say the difference is that the experienced one has woven his thousand
veils. Mysticism is a process of removing the veils, but from a new position
of experience that owes much of its height to sq. I see value in having the
wisdom of a sage and the wonder of a newborn child
Roger
*****Forgive us Lord, for we have overposted.************************
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