Re: MD Individuality

From: Elizaphanian (Elizaphanian@members.v21.co.uk)
Date: Wed Nov 13 2002 - 11:27:03 GMT

  • Next message: Jonathan B. Marder: "Objectivity (RE: MD Individuality)"

    Hello Marco,

    Thank you for some stimulating feedback. I think we do have some
    perspectives in common!

    I'd like to 1) give a few comments on your post, 2) describe my present
    understanding of 'individual', and 3) make some concluding remarks about my
    'campaign'.

    1.1 Pirsig is explicit in rejecting anything non-human as an example of
    'social level' activity. In Lila's Child :"In the MOQ all organisms are
    objective. They exist in the material world. All societies are subjective.
    They exist in the mental world. Again, the distinction is very sharp. For
    example, the "President of the U.S." is a social pattern. No objective
    scientific instrument can distinguish a President of the U.S. from anyone
    else.... This is a stretch that seems to destroy the meaning of the word
    "society." One could say "an atom is a society of electrons and protons,"
    but that weakens the meaning of the word without gaining anything....Using
    the MOQ description of biology as objective and society as subjective, it is
    clear that sheep are biological. A herd of sheep is also biological.... One
    can also call ants and bees "social" insects, but for purposes of precision
    in the MOQ, social patterns should be defined as human and subjective.
    Unlike cells and bees and ants, they cannot be detected with an objective
    scientific instrument. For example, there is no objective scientific
    instrument that can distinguish between a king and commoner, because the
    difference is social." Whether this is the best way to think through the MoQ
    is an interesting question (can the 'social' elements in a beehive be
    detected by a 'scientific' instrument? In a way that human social behaviour
    cannot?).

    1.2 Society and the fourth level both fall under the 'subjective' heading of
    SOM thinking, and Pirsig defines 'culture' as a combination of third and
    fourth level values.

    1.3 I strongly agree with you that development of individuality depends upon
    a supportive social environment, and that such a society is positive sum.

    1.4 Your comment about your motorcycle was richly suggestive. Do you feel
    that if all of these 'external' attachments were removed (all your
    possessions were stolen), and then all your 'internal' attachments were also
    removed (eg sense of self-esteem/dignity) there would be anything left?

    1.5 I also agree that the individual is a 'threshold' (the "machine-language
    interface") between the third and fourth levels.

    1.6 Re the physicists, in traditional Christian teaching, love is the
    highest form of knowledge. If you do not love, you cannot (fully) know.

    1.7 If you put ethics in with art and science then you get the Platonic
    triad of 'the good, the true and the beautiful'.

    1.8 You say: "The great artist, while following his own passions, is able to
    communicate "something" to the others. And actually he becomes "great" only
    when the others get "something"." That, in a different idiom, is a beautiful
    expression of what I am trying to articulate in my talk about 'tradition' -
    the tradition is the repository of the great communications of the past, and
    is (to a large but not exclusive degree) determinative of what counts as a
    'great communication' now.

    1.9 My proposed new term for the fourth level was 'eudaimonic', but I agree
    that it is more important to first agree on what the fourth level consists
    in, and then to consider what the appropriate name for it would be.

    2.
    As I say, I think we have a significant degree of agreement on the nature of
    'individual'. I didn't articulate that fully above, because what I want to
    do here is outline something which incorporates those agreements. It should
    be clear where our views overlap, and, indeed (just as interesting), where
    they differ.

    'Individual', in the sense of 'that which functions on the fourth level' is
    a particular term of art. It does not mean simply 'solitary unit', which is
    the 'scalable' concept, and which can, therefore, describe something at each
    level. To distinguish it, let us capitalise the term, so 'individual' just
    means the (scalably applicable) 'solitary unit' which functions at each
    level (and is normally used as an adjective); 'Individual' means the
    threshold entity between the third and fourth levels. I have elsewhere
    called this the 'choosing unit', but Wim in particular dislikes that
    language. This Individual is produced by social level patterns, but cannot
    be reduced to them. In that, it is equivalent to similar entities that
    function between other levels.

    Pirsig writes (again in Lila's Child): "The word "I" like the word "self" is
    one of the trickiest words in any metaphysics. Sometimes it is an object, a
    human body; sometimes it is a subject, a human mind. I believe there are
    number of philosophic systems, notably Ayn Rand's "Objectivism," that call
    the "I" or "individual" the central reality. Buddhists say it is an
    illusion. So do scientists. The MOQ says it is a collection of static
    patterns capable of apprehending Dynamic Quality. I think that if you
    identify the "I" with the intellect and nothing else you are taking an
    unusual position that may need some defending." [BTW Traditional
    Christianity says that the self cannot be possessed and is ultimately
    unknowable. Similar, but different.]

    The static patterns can be described, and science is starting to show how.
    This is what I take from Damasio's work (see my post of 7/6/01, 'Emotions
    revisited'); from that post, Damasio "sees the constantly refreshed picture
    of the internal body state as the original source for a sense of self: 'our
    experiences have a consistent perspective' rooted in 'a relatively stable,
    endlessly repeated biological state'. Damasio writes, 'I see self and the
    subjectivity it begets as necessary for consciousness in general'. This is
    confirmed by his studies of anasognosiacs, who, uniquely amongst mental
    patients, are unable to reflect upon their illness - indeed, unless told,
    many patients are unaware that there is something wrong at all. No
    anasognosiac is capable of saying 'Something has happened to me' - their
    capacity for self representation has been removed."

    The sense of self originates in a biologically generated mental construct,
    doubtless one that is shaped by the boundary of the skin (SOM thinking
    anyone?), and it is also - to my mind - undoubtedly something that is shared
    by other animals.

    At the social level, what changes for humans is the development of language.
    Language allows a new form of self-representation to develop, so that there
    is generated a 'social self'. This I believe to be the individual at the
    social level. It is what is commonly described as the 'ego'. What
    distinguishes this social self from the biological origins is the
    sensitivity to social values; so, for example, the social self pays close
    regard to questions of social hierarchy, pride, authority, law. The social
    self is satisfied with social excellences - fame, wealth and power. The
    organising principle of the social level, ie of the aggregation of 'social
    selves' is, as Pirsig describes in Lila, the celebrity principle.
    Celebrities are those who both exemplify and reinforce social values. [That
    the modern West takes such delight in 'destroying' celebrities is perhaps
    indicative of the profound disordering of our social level values.]

    I think the social level is the realm of mythology; that is, the
    'self-understanding' of the social self is constructed through narrative,
    and those guiding narratives are embedded in an ultimately mythological
    framework. The 'hero's journey' may be the means by which more complex
    societies achieve fully functioning social units, ie integrated social
    selves. It could also be the origin of the 'threshold' Individual, who
    became able to transcend that social level. [An interesting question: is
    Jung's 'individuation' purely a description of what happens on the third
    level, or does the fourth level description of mythology, ie in Jungian
    analysis, allow a parallel individuation for the fourth level?]

    My own view is that Wittgenstein's understanding of language is an attempt
    to refocus our understandings away from the fourth level use of language
    back onto its third level nature. What Wittgenstein calls 'forms of life' or
    'language games' are _precisely_ social level activities.

    It is - by definition - impossible for the 'social self' to question the
    social values which form it, which construct it. There is no ground for
    questioning social values from within. The fourth level is built upon the
    dynamic breakthrough (which has doubtless happened countless times) of a
    social self starting to question its own nature and its own values.

    Wim thinks historical investigations don't establish anything, and he may be
    right. I think they're fun though. Homer describes the Trojan war, and he is
    clearly using ancient 'sources' in his language. One intriguing fact: all
    the descriptions of battles in Homer assume a 'Greek' perspective, ie they
    all place the Greek armies on the left of the battlefield. Yet Homer gives -
    clearly - an informed understanding of Hector and the Trojans. Homer can see
    both sides of the conflict; that's what makes him a genius. He also
    questions the social values - he is operating at the fourth level.

    Whereas language is what enables (and bounds?) the third level; something
    different enables the fourth level.

    For a social self to begin to question the society which has formed that
    self, a number of things are required. As you say, the division of labour -
    and therefore leisure time - is required. Some store of knowledge is
    required (ritual as the 'public library', significant developments forward
    with poetry and oral history, then with drama and the public stage (derived
    from or a form of worship?), then with writing, now the internet?). Also
    required, I think, is the existence of some sort of conflict or tension, as
    described by the clash between different cultures. This must not simply be
    about 'biological' values, eg conflict over territory or resources, but at
    the level of guiding mythologies, the 'gods'.

    To return to historical examples, the society of fifth century Athens meets
    these criteria. So too does the community of Israel when held captive in
    Babylon. In each case, a creative move forward was achieved, and, most
    importantly, the existence of writing meant that some degree of static
    latching could occur. The slow accumulation of these static latches form, I
    believe, the rich soil or humus within which the Individual can flower.

    In my view, the culture of Athens was particularly conducive to the
    fostering of 'Individuals', and the great breakthrough was made (or, rather,
    codified) by Aristotle with the language of 'excellences' (arete or virtue).
    For what Aristotle describes is a scale of values which is independent of
    the social level, but which are constitutive of the Individual. The great
    political questions of the fourth level are now generated, which have the
    form 'around which ultimate principle or absolute should we organise our
    virtues'. What is the guiding value? What is Quality?

    The Individual sense of self is not bounded by social values, but by fourth
    level values, which I call 'eudaimonic'. They concentrate on the flourishing
    of the single person, they do not concentrate on the flourishing of the
    society of which that individual is a part. (Of course, if that flourishing
    is at the expense of the social level which supports it, it is
    self-destructive.)

    A society which supports 'human rights' is a society that has been modified
    by the fourth level in order to allow the fourth level to flourish.

    The fourth level scale of values is diverse and creative. It is not
    restricted to rational or intellectual development; it includes all that
    falls under 'the good, the true and the beautiful', but also things which
    may, at first sight, not seem naturally covered by these things. It would
    include an athlete beating their personal best time; it would include the
    'relational' values of friendship, marriage and parenthood. And so on.

    This Individual can still be perceived as a static pattern of values: a
    unity formed of biological, social and intellectual 'selves', with
    associated excellences at each level - physically healthy, socially
    responsible, someone who displays the unique flourishing of their own nature
    in whatever realm is appropriate, of the arts, the sciences, the humanities
    or something different again. There is much here which might satisfy the
    'Ubermensch' of Nietzche - but I haven't got stuck into him yet.

    It might seem as if this is the 'pinnacle', but I would say it is not. For
    at each stage of the process of development (and it is a development which
    is reproduced in every individual's own life-story) there is a 'lure' of
    quality, which draws the individual forward. Or as Augustine famously put
    it, 'Our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee, O God.'

    I see the mystical journey as a growth through these levels; I think, for
    example, that St John of the Cross' descriptions of the 'Dark Night' map
    quite nicely (although NOT exactly) onto this. For the 'Active purification
    of the senses' is the establishment (first) of mastery by the social self
    above the biological self, and then of the Individual self above the social
    self (so the intellect is dominant); the 'Active purification of the Spirit'
    is then the dismantling of the Individual self, where the intellect realises
    its own redundancy and limited nature (ie that it cannot grasp God; note
    that 'intellect' is here understood in the richer sense). This is the
    'apophatic' moment. If this is completed, then there follows a 'Passive
    night' in which the individual must simply wait for the action of grace on
    the soul, at which point the individual becomes a sharer in the action of
    the Trinity and an agent of God in the world (ie a perfect vehicle for the
    transmission and generation of Quality).

    3.
    My 'campaign' is perhaps misconceived. As you point out (and others have) it
    is more important to agree on what the fourth level consists in, than to
    first give it a name. However, I do think it needs renaming - but that
    argument can wait.

    Yet I find it interesting that almost nobody has defended the understanding
    of intellect which Pirsig has explicitly committed himself to (ie the
    'narrow' sense). Even David, who I think disagrees with me most violently,
    restricts himself to a criticism of my proposals and not to a defence of
    Pirsig's interpretation. I think the violence of David's reaction arises
    from his misperception of me as a reactionary fundamentalist, but no doubt
    all will become clear in time :-)

    And yet Pirsig's understanding is inadequate, in my view, because it is a)
    morally repugnant (what is the worst thing that we can describe about 9/11?)
    and b) philosophically incoherent (what is the 'choosing unit' or 'machine
    language interface' for the Intellect?). I note with great interest that no
    one has even tried to defend Pirsig on the second element.

    I don't think this invalidates the MoQ as a whole, it just means that we
    need to move on from the presentation of the MoQ outlined in Lila, and
    indeed in Lila's Child. Which, in fact, I think would delight Pirsig more
    than anything else we could possibly do. His 'child' might then start to
    grow up, and walk on its own two feet.

    Sam
    www.elizaphanian.v-2-1.net/home.html

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html



    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Nov 14 2002 - 13:56:20 GMT