From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Wed Aug 04 2004 - 19:52:32 BST
JM said: Not sure what you mean by saying "out of nothing" all the time.
Where is
this "nothing" from which things come? Is it the future? Do you think that
things could be any other way than the way they are now?
DM: I think Pirsig says that Eastern Nothing is pretty much the same concept
as quality.
Pretty much the same concept as the One. I certainly think that patterns are
laid
down by DQ that the future is open, that DQ is creative, that the possible
is DQ is real
and is richer than what actually comes about, if this was not true there
could be no freedom
and choice. IMO, DQ is not probable, DQ is creative, always causes surprise,
otherwise it is SQ.
IMO, this is not nihilism, that would state that DQ is absurd and pointless,
IMO, DQ acts,
DQ can lay claim to the achievement of the cosmos, there is a movement
towards freedom,
freedom is the final cause of the creativity of DQ, without such a value
there would be only
randomness rather than creative movement. Values explain why there is SQ,
instead
of flux, the cosmos contains many patterns that are the same again, as we
can no longer
explain this in terms of blind mechanism we have to assume that there is a
reason for this
repetition and sameness. The answer is that DQ chooses to withdraw, this
withdrawal allows
SQ to emerge (what else could SQ be?), SQ chooses to allow patterns to occur
because these
patterns have value, at some level or other. Why is there conflict and
friction between patterns?
Well, because DQ has to live by its own value-commitments, this is the deal
whereby a finite
cosmos can emerge from infiinite and unbounded DQ. Make any sense?
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise
> Hi David M,
>
> Johnny: Do you feel that an individual could come up with an intellectual
> pattern from out of the blue? I mean, how come no one invented the jet
> airplane in the bronze age? Why did the propellor plane have to be
> invented first?
>
> DM: This is the whole basis of the MOQ that we need to grasp.
> Being emerges freely/dynamically out of nothing.
>
> I'd say it emerges from Quality/Morality, not nothing. It emerges
according
> to Q/M, along with the consciousness that experiences the Being. There
> could be no matter without a consciousness expecting there to be matter,
and
> no consciousness would expect there to be matter if it wasn't to be
> expected. Quality, the collection of patterns that exist as expectations
to
> be repeated, creates them both.
>
> The history of the Universe, where we see matter as having come into
> existence from nothing long before Consciousness emerges, is merely what
we
> believe, because that belief is part of our world, it is essential to
> Quality/Morality that there be a history, history might even be the same
> thing as Quality/Morality. But it is created from now and projected
> backwards to fit our beliefs of the present world, which values certain
> preconditions and so creates them as history.
>
> >This creates
> the first level. The second level is made possible by the first
> but adds something new to it. The added and new bit does come
> out of nothing, it adds this to what is there (in terms of SQ patterns)
> to create the new level.
>
> Not sure what you mean by saying "out of nothing" all the time. Where is
> this "nothing" from which things come? Is it the future? Do you think
that
> things could be any other way than the way they are now?
>
> >When we reach a certain level we begin
> to be able to imagine something new like a jet plane and if we
> are lucky we are also able to bring what is only possible into
> reality and help the jet place to emerge as if our of nothing.
> Sure there are SQ patterns required first before the jet plane
> like the propellor plane but until you actually have a jet plane
> the existence of the jet plane is nothing,
>
> Yes, it is nothing until it is something, but it is also inevitable, the
> proof being that it is.
>
> >but the nothing-reality
> of the Possible is precisely the incredible source of all DQ
> out of Nothing. Any help?
>
> Yes, I would call DQ the future/possible - actually, I would call it the
> probable, the expected.
>
> "nothing/reality" sounds like Nihilism, which is a lot like the MoQ's
DQ/SQ
> in that is puts the constant devaluing of the highest values as the
highest
> value, ie, striving for change for the better according to the present.
>
> Johnny
>
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