From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Aug 15 2004 - 12:10:52 BST
Scott
I understand what you are saying but are
you being entirely fair to Pirsig?
Pirsig explains what he means by SQ.
SQ belongs to the finite world of
repeating patterns. Clearly aspects
of SQ can be called intellectual and are
part of finite world rather than anything
transcendent. So he says something about how
intellect works in this world. You point to the
possible connection between DQ and that force that
enables the world to Become. You are happy to call
this intellect. Clearly awareness/DQ have deep connections.
The thing I think Pirsig fails to discuss is how SQ is possible.
What lies behind any SQ/return/same again occurrance?
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@earthlink.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 5:22 AM
Subject: RE: MD Plotinus, Pirsig and Wilber
> DMB,
>
> A major difference between Pirsig and Plotinus, is that the latter held
> that the world emanated from Intellect (nous), via Soul, and our job is to
> make the return journey, whereas with Pirsig, there is only the upward
> journey, with intellect something to be cast off. The Plotinian Intellect
> plays approximately the same role as the MOQ's DQ, but since the MOQ sees
> the intellect as only another level of static pattern, the two
philosophies
> become very different. The MOQ is nominalist and empirical, while
> neo-Platonism is neither.
>
> - Scott
>
>
> > 1. Is Quality more similar to: a. Whitehead's Process Philosophy, b. the
> > Tao, or; c. Plotinus' One?
> >
> > To answer, Dan Glover quoted From Anthony McWatt's MOQ PhD Textbook:
> >
> > "Pirsig asserts that the philosopher closest to him is Plotinus."
> >
> > "I think Pirsig has stated this as both philosophers characterise
> experience
> >
> > as being a continuum from the divine through the intellect to biology
> then
> > to physical matter (the least divine or lowest Quality level);
everything
> is
> >
> > one, for both philosophers, in the sense of being an aspect of God (or
to
> > use Pirsig's terminology 'Dynamic Quality')."
> >
> > This idea of a continuum is part of the perennial philosophy...
> >
> > Ken Wilber:
> > "To begin with the premodern or traditional sources, the easiest access
to
> > their wisdom is through what has been called the perennial philosophy,
or
> > the common core of the world's great spiritual traditions. As Huston
> Smith,
> > Arthur Lovejoy, Ananda Coomaraswamy, and other scholars of these
> traditions
> > have pointed out, the core of the perennial philosophy is the view that
> > reality is composed of various LEVELS OF EXISTENCE - levels of being and
> > knowing - ranging from matter to body to mind to soul to spirit. Each
> senior
> > dimension transcends but includes its juniors, so that this is a
> conception
> > of wholes within wholes within wholes indefinitely, reaching from dirt
to
> > divinity." (Emphasis is Wilber's)
> >
> > Mysticism is also a part of the perennial philosophy...
> >
> > Pirsig:
> > 247 "Bradley's fundamental assertion is that the reality of the world is
> > intellectually unknowable, and that defines him as a mystic. ...Both he
> and
> > the MOQ are expressing what Aldous Huxley called "The Perennial
> Philosophy",
> > which is perennial, I believe, because it happens to be true."
> >
> > Or as I like to put it, the evidence is so overwhelming, transcending
both
> > history and culture, that we have little choice except to believe it....
> >
> > Wilber:
> > "THE PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY is the worldview that has been embraced by the
> > vast majority of the world's greatest spiritual teachers, philosophers,
> > thinkers, and even scientists. Its called 'perennial' or 'universal'
> because
> > it shows up in virtually all cultures across the globe and across the
> ages.
> > And wherever we find it, it has essentially similar features, it is in
> > essential agreement the world over. We moderns, who can hardly agree on
> > anything, find this rather hard to believe."
> >
> > Wilber:
> > "THE PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY (the term was made famous by Huxley but coined
> by
> > Leibniz) - the transcentental essence of the great religions - has as
its
> > core the notion of 'nonduality', which means that reality is neither one
> nor
> > many, neither permanent nor dynamic, neither seperate nor unified,
neither
> > pluralistic nor holistic. It is entirely and radically above and prior
to
> > ANY form of conceptual elaboration. ..Sri Ramana Maharshi had a perfect
> > summary of the paradox of the ultimate:"
> >
> > The world is illusory;
> > Brahman alone is real;
> > Brahman is the world.
> >
> > Am I right in thinking that no explanation is needed. Is it as obvious
to
> me
> > as it is to you? Pirsig is very similar to Plotinus and Wilber, no? They
> > have all adopted the perennial philosophy. If we're looking to compare
> > apples with apples, these mystical types are far better suited than
almost
> > anything else, no?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > dmb
> >
> >
> >
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