From: ml (mbtlehn@ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sun Sep 12 2004 - 02:01:11 BST
Hello David:
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: MD Political Correctness
<snip>
>
> dmb says:
> No, sorry. You lost me. Well, I have a vague idea that you're trying to be
> big about it and strike a moderate tone, but I still don't see that you've
> addressed my objections, which are fairly specific. (We ARE talking about
> political correctness, aren't we?)
mel: (blush) Sorry, I thought you were quoting from
my reply to Platt. I missed that you were returning to an
earlier state in the thread...it's clear now.
> dmb says:
This exchange gets back to the topic...
> dmb had said:
> ...But bigotry judges the value of persons according to race, ethnicity,
> gender and other unchangeable and irrelevant standards. ...And in
Pirsigian
> terms, bigotry is a low quality social value and rigorous rejection of an
> idea is an intellectual activity. They're different levels of reality.
>
<snip>
>
> dmb says:
> Intolerance is also a choice regarding ideas, their adherents and sports
fans?
mel:
My reply addressed your omission of anything beyond the physical,
which I believed was one of Platt's earlier points. (dmb- But bigotry
judges the value of persons according to race, ethnicity, gender
and other unchangeable and irrelevant standards.)
Sports fans was humor, albeit sans smilie face.
dmb says:
> There are two major problems with this. The first is a conflation of the
two
> major conventional definitions of "intolerance". The second includes this
> conflations and adds a failure to respects Pirsig's levels.
mel:
Unloading bigotry earlier of emotional baggage I chose to use
intollerant and its variants instead. No denotational limit was
enforced, but instead a general conotation as was used for bigotry
was left in place. However, the unreasoned knee-jerk rejection
of 'X' is low quality regardless of Pirsigian level of context, when
compared to a clear-eyed considered examination.
dmb says:
> The word
> "intolerant", in the context of political correctness and the angry white
> guys who oppose it, refers to one who is "unwilling to grant equal freedom
> of expression or share social, political or professional rights. BIGOTED",
> as Wester's dictionary puts it. But you have also mixed that definition
with
> the broader meaning; "Unable or unwilling to endure < a plant intolerant
of
> direct sunlight>", again as Webster's puts it.
mel:
Hmm, before you crawl into a dictionary and believe that
the denotative meanings dilineate reality, there is something
you need to do. Go to Memphis or New Orleans and walk
around. Say "hi" to anyone black (assuming you are white)
and tell me about bigotry as largely a white possession.
Was a big eye opener to me when I traveled the Southeast U.S.
dmb says:
We could talk about rapid
> sports fans and lactose intolerance, but I very much prefer to stay
focused
> on the topic. You know? The second problem is on display in your list of
> choices. You've got ideas, those who believe them, political ideologues,
> racists, sports teams, and gay people all mixed together as if it doesn't
> matter what we're talking about. But it does matter. The choices on your
> list can be sorted out with the MOQ's hierarchy, where societies CAN be
> judged and measured, where there are standards for intellectual quality,
AND
> where race and gender, as biological qualities, are unrelated and
irrelevant
> to those judgements and standards.
mel: Uhh...fast, lactose intolerant gay sports fans in the MoQ
are beyond my ken, but probably relevant.
dmb says:
> In terms of the bigger picture, I see the PC wars as just one more
> manifestation of the conflict between social and intellectual values.
> Neither are very proud examples, but basically I see a spirit of equaltiy
> and inclusiveness in the attempt to soften insulting terms like "retarded"
> and "cripple". I don't think it really works to effect any changes in
> attitude on the park of the speaker, but the motives are good and the
gimps
> really love it. Its not fair to say every critic of this movement is a
> member of the klan, but every member of the klan is a critic of this
> movement - and so is every other kind of bigot. (I should mention that I
> worked in talk radio for about five years, where I heard this kind of
> bigoted critic every single day.)
>
mel:
(nice use of reflexive humor in sentence 3)
While I am sure that you are not advocating the sacrifice of
genuine thought in favor of an unreasoning appeal to authority,
which both White Supremacy and Political Correctness at their
worst BOTH are, it would seem a better choice to advocate
better critical reasoning on the part of people writ large, rather
than settling.
Political Correctness may have started as a genuine
attempt at 'sensitivity' (regardless of whose vision of it.),
but it is now a much more static value set of practices.
dmb says:
> Or forget all that and ask yourself a common sense question.
What's worse, college kids with a pile of lame euphemisms
or centuries or the continuing legacy of rights denied?
mel:
Neither.
Why waste college kids' time on the useless when they
could learn the worthwhile...say the MoQ?
Why not encourage the exercise of responsibility which
creates rights in the first place?
thanks--mel
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