RE: MD On Faith

From: Scott Roberts (
Date: Wed Oct 06 2004 - 19:31:46 BST

  • Next message: Joseph Maurer: "Re: MD On Faith"


    > I'm dealing with reality. I'm not doubting your personal Catholicism is
    > different, Scott, but until the Church takes a new official position that
    > the reality.

    I am not a Catholic, nor a Christian, nor a Buddhist, nor an anything in

    > Is the act of homosexuaility not still a sin?

    > If not, where's the point of reference? Where does one go to become a
    > "knowledgeable Catholic" if not the Chucrch's official canon?

    According to the Vatican it is a sin. According to a large percentage of
    American Catholics it is not. I consider a great deal of what the Vatican
    puts out to be bad religion. Not all of it, however. What no Catholic, who
    has any awareness of official doctrine would say, is that God hates
    homosexuals. It is a sin for a Catholic to hate a homosexual. As the saying
    goes, one hates the sin but not the sinner.

    > And what about the vast minions who aren't savvy or "knowledgeable" like
    > Scott? They believe God hates fags along with a lot of other backwards
    > Catholic pulp and there are lots of them.

    Sure. People are mostly irrational. My point is that if there is a great
    deal of irrationality in religion, that's because there is a great deal of
    irrationality in people. That goes for popes and cardinals as well.

    > George Carlin said something to the effect of:
    > Imagine how stupid the average person is; now realize how many people
    > are out there who are more stupid than that.
    > The Church intentionally goes after those people; the Church tries to
    > control those people in an effort to control everything in a world where
    > majority rules, which is one of the main reasons I hate the Church

    The Church is all over the place. If you don't like a particular church,
    try another, or none at all. No Unitarian Universalist is likely to say
    they hate fags (and expect to be accepted in the community). American
    Catholics are about evenly divided between liberals and conservatives. The
    former by and large disagree with the pope (read Garry Wills "Papal Sins"
    for example -- he's a Catholic). In time, one can hope, the Vatican may
    catch up.

    > Blind, irrational faith (and apologists like you, perhaps, Scott) is the
    > Church's deadliest weapon.

    The offical doctrine of the Catholic Church is that there is no conflict
    between reason and faith. In practice, of course, there has been, but
    that's because Catholics, like everyone else, are often irrational.

      Reason, logic, Love, QUALITY, reality...The
    > Church avoids those like the plague.

    Nonsense. The Church is bad and good, rational and irrational, etc.,
    because that is what people are. It includes St. Francis's and
    Torquemada's, Opus Dei reactionaries and Father Berrigan-type anti-war
    activists. Your determination to see only the bad is itself irrational and

    - Scott

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