From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Oct 24 2004 - 17:38:43 BST
Hello Sir
> David Morey said:
> Generally, I find that anti-god talk folk have experienced low-quality
> thinking on these subjects, whilst the pro-god-talk camp are either more
> familiar with high-quality god talk or are in the low-quality god talk
> camp and are pretty ignorant.
>
> dmb says:
> Um, this sentence makes me wonder if its author knows anything about
> high-quality. You've simply asserted that you're a deep thinker and those
> who disagree are ignorant, bad thinkers. Its not an argument or a case so
> much as a self-congratulatory assertion, a naked assertion without any
> apparent basis.
DM: Yes it is an observation not an argument. I wonder if you have
understood
it. What do you think it says? It says that both camps are often ignorant of
each
other but I have come across rational and scientifically minded people
who are interested in high quality theology (god-talk) but never I think
somone
who has a good knowledge of theology and believes that none of it is
worthwhile
even if they are close to atheism.
> MOrey said:
> My own path has been from a pure atheist back ground, obsession with
> science
> and philosophy, discovery of the problems and low-quality aspects of
> atheist
> and secular thinking, to discovery of high-quality god talk that actually
> engages with issues that secular and atheist thinking dogmatically refuse
> to
> address.
>
> dmb says:
> Like what? Are you saying faith is better than nihilism? As I understand
> the
> MOQ, neither of these are options. In any case, without something specific
> I
> can only guess what you're talking about.
The ontology of Emmanuel Levinas for example. Tillich on morality.
I agree that faith and nihilism are both fruitless avenues as per the MOQ,
using the god-word does not imply faith for me. I have no time for the faith
concept. Also not a Christian.
>
> Morey said:
> Most secular thinking fails to get as deep as Pirsig does, and let's face
> it
> when he gets deep he starts to open his thinking up to what is still
> religion, but of the eastern variety.
>
> dmb says:
> Not just Eastern religion, but Native American mysticism too. Its a less
> cluttered and more familiar form of mysticism. One of the reasons LILA
> opens
> with the teepee scene and all that. I realize you're only sharing your
> path
> with us so we know where you're coming from, but I have to say that the
> MOQ
> does not present shallow secular thinking nor theistic religion as options
> and more or less rejects them both. Can we please agree on that, at least?
Agreed, I think I am talking about a post-secular view that has chiefly to
engage
with mysticism.
> Morey said:
> I guess my position is pro-deep thinking, and my suggestion is that unless
> you avoid deep thinking, you are going to have to start talking about
> stuff
> that often provoke the use of the god-word. Do you really imagine that we
> would talk about god for thousands of years only to find that god is a
> fiction. How strange would that make us.
>
> dmb says:
> Not at all. There was a point where we stopped worshipping animal spirits,
> why not God too? Its called evolution, man. Get with the program. Today
> the
> serious (deep) questions are not about the reality of God, but the meaning
> and purpose of myth. We can look at religion with different eyes now, and
> there really is no going back even if we wanted to. When we talk about God
> in the anthropomorphic sense, we're talking about a conception that is
> entirely inappropriate within modern consciousness, one that is entirely
> intellectually indefensible. (This is where faith comes galloping to the
> rescue.)
DM: Pretty much agree, my interest is in a post-Christian, post-secular
rethink which is what I think Pirsig is all about, but I also have no
problem
with using and re-working former resources if we can.
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Oct 24 2004 - 23:54:59 BST