Re: MD is god real?

From: David Morey (
Date: Sun Oct 24 2004 - 17:38:43 BST

  • Next message: David Buchanan: "RE: MD On Faith"

    Hello Sir

    > David Morey said:
    > Generally, I find that anti-god talk folk have experienced low-quality
    > thinking on these subjects, whilst the pro-god-talk camp are either more
    > familiar with high-quality god talk or are in the low-quality god talk
    > camp and are pretty ignorant.
    > dmb says:
    > Um, this sentence makes me wonder if its author knows anything about
    > high-quality. You've simply asserted that you're a deep thinker and those
    > who disagree are ignorant, bad thinkers. Its not an argument or a case so
    > much as a self-congratulatory assertion, a naked assertion without any
    > apparent basis.

    DM: Yes it is an observation not an argument. I wonder if you have
    it. What do you think it says? It says that both camps are often ignorant of
    other but I have come across rational and scientifically minded people
    who are interested in high quality theology (god-talk) but never I think
    who has a good knowledge of theology and believes that none of it is
    even if they are close to atheism.

    > MOrey said:
    > My own path has been from a pure atheist back ground, obsession with
    > science
    > and philosophy, discovery of the problems and low-quality aspects of
    > atheist
    > and secular thinking, to discovery of high-quality god talk that actually
    > engages with issues that secular and atheist thinking dogmatically refuse
    > to
    > address.
    > dmb says:
    > Like what? Are you saying faith is better than nihilism? As I understand
    > the
    > MOQ, neither of these are options. In any case, without something specific
    > I
    > can only guess what you're talking about.

    The ontology of Emmanuel Levinas for example. Tillich on morality.
    I agree that faith and nihilism are both fruitless avenues as per the MOQ,
    using the god-word does not imply faith for me. I have no time for the faith
    concept. Also not a Christian.

    > Morey said:
    > Most secular thinking fails to get as deep as Pirsig does, and let's face
    > it
    > when he gets deep he starts to open his thinking up to what is still
    > religion, but of the eastern variety.
    > dmb says:
    > Not just Eastern religion, but Native American mysticism too. Its a less
    > cluttered and more familiar form of mysticism. One of the reasons LILA
    > opens
    > with the teepee scene and all that. I realize you're only sharing your
    > path
    > with us so we know where you're coming from, but I have to say that the
    > MOQ
    > does not present shallow secular thinking nor theistic religion as options
    > and more or less rejects them both. Can we please agree on that, at least?

    Agreed, I think I am talking about a post-secular view that has chiefly to
    with mysticism.

    > Morey said:
    > I guess my position is pro-deep thinking, and my suggestion is that unless
    > you avoid deep thinking, you are going to have to start talking about
    > stuff
    > that often provoke the use of the god-word. Do you really imagine that we
    > would talk about god for thousands of years only to find that god is a
    > fiction. How strange would that make us.
    > dmb says:
    > Not at all. There was a point where we stopped worshipping animal spirits,
    > why not God too? Its called evolution, man. Get with the program. Today
    > the
    > serious (deep) questions are not about the reality of God, but the meaning
    > and purpose of myth. We can look at religion with different eyes now, and
    > there really is no going back even if we wanted to. When we talk about God
    > in the anthropomorphic sense, we're talking about a conception that is
    > entirely inappropriate within modern consciousness, one that is entirely
    > intellectually indefensible. (This is where faith comes galloping to the
    > rescue.)

    DM: Pretty much agree, my interest is in a post-Christian, post-secular
    rethink which is what I think Pirsig is all about, but I also have no
    with using and re-working former resources if we can.

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