Re: MD On Faith

From: Platt Holden (
Date: Wed Oct 27 2004 - 14:31:38 BST

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    Hi Mark, Scott, All:

    Mark (msh) wrote about Scott:
    > > Here he casts his vote for consciousness as the
    > > ultimate reality because in doing so the problem of consciousness
    > > arising from matter, he believes, disappears.

    Scott replied:
    > That's not my only reason, nor my main one. My main one is that the
    > existence of consciousness is impossible to reconcile with a belief that
    > spacetime is a fundamental structure. For consciousness to be aware of
    > spatiotemporal events, it must transcend their spatiotemporality. Only
    > something outside of time could perceive motion.

    Excellent point, one repeatedly made by Ken Wilber: "An eye cannot see

    Mark continued:
    > > On the other hand, I
    > > choose to let the problem be a problem, for now, and go with the
    > > rational empiricism of the MOQ, believing that a large amount of
    > > empirical evidence suggests the possibility that consciousness may
    > > very well be a manifestation of matter.

    Scott replied:
    > While I claim that all that we call "matter", at least insofar as it can
    > be measured in spatiotemporal terms, is produced by consciousness, that the
    > idea that it exists independently of consciousness *as* spatiotemporal
    > matter does not stand up to inquiry. All that we perceive with our senses
    > (color, shape, motion, sound, touch, etc.) does not exist except through
    > the act of perceiving, so it is fallacious to use these products of
    > perception (which we call the material world) to explain perception.

    Correct. Materialists ought to ponder Scott's argument, perhaps praying
    for enlightenment. :-)


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