Re: MD On Faith

From: ml (mbtlehn@ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri Oct 29 2004 - 02:55:49 BST

  • Next message: Arlo J. Bensinger: "Re: MD On Faith"

    Platt
    ...need to think on it...lots of issues in it
    thanks--mel

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
    Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:03 AM
    Subject: Re: MD On Faith

    > Hello Mel:
    >
    > There's much "truth" in what you say. Thanks for your response. A further
    > question arises in my mind that perhaps you can answer. There are many
    > examples of things I believe to be true although I haven't experienced
    > them directly. For instance, I believe man landed on the moon, but there
    > are those who say the TV "evidence" was conjured up in a studio. Or, I use
    > to believe what the NY Times reported was accurate, but I don't believe
    > that any more because some of their news stories have been shown to be
    > just that, "stories" motivated by a political agenda. Same goes for CBS
    > news.
    >
    > So to distinguish truth from falsehood seems to be not only what one
    > experiences directly, like in a gallery of paintings, but whether or not
    > those "paintings" are authentic.. In other words, do you trust the gallery
    > owner?
    >
    > Those who hold up the discoveries of science as trustworthy must also
    > pause to examine their faith given the history of fraudulent claims and
    > the prevalence of "junk science" being touted by the sensationalist-driven
    > media. (How many "breakthroughs" in cancer research have I read about
    > during my life? Plenty I can tell you.)
    >
    > I don't recall Pirsig addressing this issue of trust in second-hand or
    > third-hand reports of "empirical evidence." I'll be interested in what you
    > think.
    >
    > Thanks
    > Platt
    >
    > > Hello Platt:
    > > <snip
    > > > > <Platt Said:>
    > > > > "Pirsig describes faith as "a willingness to believe in falsehoods."
    > > > >
    > > > > He also says that it's "possible for more than one set of truths to
    > > exist."
    > > > >
    > > > > So how does he distinguish a truth from a falsehood?
    > > > >
    > > > > If, as he said, one should choose truth on the basis of its quality,
    > > like
    > > > > choosing paintings in a gallery, then truth becomes a matter of
    > > > > personal belief. And so, logically, do falsehoods.
    > > > >
    > > > > Perhaps someone will explain this apparent contradiction. Why is
    faith
    > > in
    > > > > what's true any different than faith in what's false?."
    > > > >
    > >
    > > mel:
    > > I wonder if the answer to the apparent contradiction
    > > is right in what you've shown above...
    > >
    > > statement two: ...more than one set of truths...as it implies
    > > as you've said "personal belief", but taken one step it may
    > > be that it applies to personal experience. You have faith
    > > in what you have experienced as real, as being true, and
    > > likewise each of us assume truth to our own experience of
    > > what is real in our lives.
    > >
    > > So, the false part comes in the inability to share another's
    > > "personal belief" as outgrowth of another's experience. If
    > > we ungraciously press our belief in lieu of discovery on
    > > another they are forced to bear a false "truth", because they
    > > have not attained it.
    > >
    > > put another way...a man who studies thought for decades
    > > and finds a flash of sustained dynamic clarity, a flood of
    > > quality in the structure of what he has prepared in his mind
    > > and which prepared him in experience, then for him there is
    > > immense high value. To a student decades later, the degraded
    > > and burdened extract as taught in a university department may
    > > be a low quality experience yielding naught.
    > >
    > > Similarly a guest at Ryoanji may drop through the entire world
    > > as everything becomes other than itself and undivided insight
    > > in Dynamic Quality brings everything together into just what it is.
    > > But to the woman in a Northeast dojo who feels violated by her
    > > fellow travelers will find in the resulant tradition a sham of no
    > > quality.
    > >
    > > A holy man in a mosque may dissappear into surrender and
    > > life bcomes purity, yet the later degraded madrasa of a distant
    > > student twists impressionable youth into worshipers of
    > > destruction, givers of pain.
    > >
    > > Endless possible examples of one gets it and there is no
    > > successful transfer to another's experience. The faith in one
    > > does not yeild truth in another...following the empty form will
    > > however bring falsehood.
    > >
    > > just a thought.
    > >
    > > thanks--mel
    >
    >
    >
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