From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu Dec 02 2004 - 02:09:00 GMT
On 1 Dec 2004 at 18:21, hampday@earthlink.net wrote:
How I define Morality will necessarily support the philosophy of
Essence, the central thesis of which is that man is an autonomous
creature in a relational world.
msh asks:
I agree with this. But are human beings the only autonomous
creatures in a relational world? If so, what are your reasons for
granting autonomy to one kind of animal above others?
platt:
> If the MOQ champions individual autonomy, it appears the MOQ
> supports the basic thrust of Ayn Rand's "virtue of selfishness."
ham:
We are all selfish by nature; it is not a virtue but a description of
man's position in a relational world.
msh says:
This is the ageless apology for selfish behavior, for which exist so
many counter-examples it's hard to imagine anyone still thinks this
way. Here's a thought experiment: There's a small girl alone on on
a street corner, eating an ice cream cone. From your concealed
location, you watch a man approach her. The man looks around, thinks
he is unobserved, then takes her cone and walks away eating it.
Would you regard this as natural behavior? Would anyone? In fact,
the man would rightly be regarded as sociopathic, or worse.
ham:
Rand's philosophy was that we should give primary service to self-
achievement. She was opposed to the morality of altruism which, on
analysis, has no more ethical substance than Marxist communism. The
actions of many have been attributed to "an altruistic motive"; but
concepts such as unselfish devotion, living for others, sharing the
wealth, etc., just don't lend themselves to a workable morality
system. Often these activities, particularly when conducted by
religious groups, have a hidden agenda to influence the
beneficiaries. Rand was a staunch capitalist who
believed in the morality of free enterprise, as you and I do.
msh asks:
Could you explain why you reject the morality of altruism, yet accept
the morality of free enterprise? Forget for a moment that there is
no such thing as a free market, and never has been. I won't even
bother to ask you about Marxism, as I doubt that you know enough
about it to even have an opinion.
Are you unable to think of a single incident from your own
experience, or your knowledge of history, where an individual acted
unselfishly?
ham:
But self-sufficiency, like "everything is Quality", is a pragmatic
axiom without an underlying metaphysical rationale. I see both Ayn
Rand and RMP as both philosophically deficient in this regard.
msh asks:
The axiom(s) of any metaphysics are pragmatic, not metaphysical. If
they were metaphysical statements they'd be derived, not assumed.
What is the underlying metaphysical rationale for your theism?
platt:
> Whether the minister realizes it or not, his support for the view
> that "society is doomed by the concept of moral relativism" is
> undermined by his adherence a number of moral absolutes.
ham:
You mean "moral absolutism", of course. I disagree. I think
Edington has provided vivid examples of terrible acts against
humanity by individuals who were absolutely convinced they were
right. They include the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers perpetrated
by moral absolutists.
msh asks:
Would they include retaliatory attacks against civilian populations
(100,000 innocents and counting) that had NOTHING to do with the 9/11
attacks? Or is moral absolutism something that occurs only among
people who don't have their own Air Force?
platt:
> What concerns me that if moral laws are man made and relative, then
> moral rules are arbitrary and thus no one is obligated to follow
> them. That's why I believe a society that adheres to moral
> relativism is doomed.
msh says:
Moral rules within the social level ARE arbitrary and man-made.
That's why behavior within societies must be regulated by fourth
level laws rather than social-cultural tradition. And these laws
themselves must be highly dynamic, so that behavior that comes to be
seen as dangerous to society can be efficaciously outlawed and
controlled. In order to survive, a society must strive for maximum
access to intellectual DQ, which means to vigorously encourage a free
and open interchange of information and ideas.
Thanks,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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